Am I anti-American?

[AbuMubarak]

[Ms. Arundhati Roy is one of India's most celebrated writers who has captivated the minds of readers worldwide. You must read this piece, if you have the time!].
Not again

By Arundhati Roy (The Guardian, September 27, 2002)

Recently, those who have criticised the actions of the US government (myself included) have been called "anti-American". Anti-Americanism is in the process of being consecrated into an ideology. The term is usually used by the American establishment to discredit and, not falsely - but shall we say inaccurately - define its critics. Once someone is branded anti-American, the chances are that he or she will be judged before they're heard and the argument will be lost in the welter of bruised national pride. What does the term mean? That you're anti-jazz?

Or that you're opposed to free speech? That you don't delight in Toni Morrison or John Updike?

That you have a quarrel with giant sequoias? Does it mean you don't admire the hundreds of thousands of American citizens who marched against nuclear weapons, or the thousands of war resisters who forced their government to withdraw from Vietnam? Does it mean that you hate all Americans?

This sly conflation of America's music, literature, the breathtaking physical beauty of the land, the ordinary pleasures of ordinary people with criticism of the US government's foreign policy is a deliberate and extremely effective strategy. It's like a retreating army taking cover in a heavily populated city, hoping that the prospect of hitting civilian targets will deter enemy fire.

There are many Americans who would be mortified to be associated with their government's policies. The most scholarly, scathing, incisive, hilarious critiques of the hypocrisy and the contradictions in US government policy come from American citizens. (Similarly, in India, not hundreds, but millions of us would be ashamed and offended, if we were in any way implicated with the present Indian government's fascist policies.)

To call someone anti-American, indeed, to be anti-American, is not just racist, it's a failure of the imagination. An inability to see the world in terms other than those that the establishment has set out for you: If you don't love us, you hate us. If you're not good, you're evil. If you're not with us, you're with the terrorists.

Last year, like many others, I too made the mistake of scoffing at this post-September 11 rhetoric, dismissing it as foolish and arrogant. I've realised that it's not. It's actually a canny recruitment drive for a misconceived, dangerous war. Every day I'm taken aback at how many people believe that opposing the war in Afghanistan amounts to supporting terrorism. Now that the initial aim of the war - capturing Osama bin Laden - seems to have run into bad weather, the goalposts have been moved. It's being made out that the whole point of the war was to topple the Taliban regime and liberate Afghan women from their burqas. We're being asked to believe that the US marines are actually on a feminist mission. (If so, will their next stop be America's military ally, Saudi Arabia?) Think of it this way: in India there are some pretty reprehensible social practices, against "untouchables", against Christians and Muslims, against women. Should they be bombed?

Uppermost on everybody's mind, of course, particularly here in America, is the horror of what has come to be known as 9/11. Nearly 3,000 civilians lost their lives in that lethal terrorist strike. The grief is still deep. The rage still sharp. The tears have not dried. And a strange, deadly war is raging around the world. Yet, each person who has lost a loved one surely knows that no war, no act of revenge, will blunt the edges of their pain or bring their own loved ones back. War cannot avenge those who have died.

War is only a brutal desecration of their memory.

To fuel yet another war - this time against Iraq - by manipulating people's grief, by packaging it for TV specials sponsored by corporations selling detergent or running shoes, is to cheapen and devalue grief, to drain it of meaning. We are seeing a pillaging of even the most private human feelings for political purpose. It is a terrible, violent thing for a state to do to its people.

The US government says that Saddam Hussein is a war criminal, a cruel military despot who has committed genocide against his own people. That's a fairly accurate description of the man. In 1988, he razed hundreds of villages in northern Iraq and killed thousands of Kurds. Today, we know that that same year the US government provided him with $500m in subsidies to buy American farm products. The next year, after he had successfully completed his genocidal campaign, the US government doubled its subsidy to $1bn. It also provided him with high-quality germ seed for anthrax, as well as helicopters and dual-use material that could be used to manufacture chemical and biological weapons

It turns out that while Saddam was carrying out his worst atrocities, the US and UK governments were his close allies. So what changed?

In August 1990, Saddam invaded Kuwait. His sin was not so much that he had committed an act of war, but that he acted independently, without orders from his masters. This display of independence was enough to upset the power equation in the Gulf. So it was decided that Saddam be exterminated, like a pet that has outlived its owner's affection.

A decade of bombing has not managed to dislodge him. Now, almost 12 years on, Bush Jr is ratcheting up the rhetoric once again. He's proposing an all-out war whose goal is nothing short of a regime change. Andrew H Card Jr, the White House chief-of-staff, described how the administration was stepping up its war plans for autumn: "From a marketing point of view," he said, "you don't introduce new products in August." This time the catchphrase for Washington's "new product" is not the plight of people in Kuwait but the assertion that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. Forget "the feckless moralising of the 'peace' lobbies," wrote Richard Perle, chairman of the Defence Policy Board. The US will " act alone if necessary" and use a "pre-emptive strike" if it determines it is in US interests.

Weapons inspectors have conflicting reports about the status of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, and many have said clearly that its arsenal has been dismantled and that it does not have the capacity to build one. What if Iraq does have a nuclear weapon? Does that justify a pre-emptive US strike? The US has the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons in the world. It's the only country in the world to have actually used them on civilian populations. If the US is justified in launching a pre-emptive attack on Iraq, why, any nuclear power is justified in carrying out a pre-emptive attack on any other. India could attack Pakistan, or the other way around.

Recently, the US played an important part in forcing India and Pakistan back from the brink of war. Is it so hard for it to take its own advice? Who is guilty of feckless moralising? Of preaching peace while it wages war? The US, which Bush has called "the most peaceful nation on earth", has been at war with one country or another every year for the last 50 years.

Wars are never fought for altruistic reasons. They're usually fought for hegemony, for business. And then, of course, there's the business of war. In his book on globalisation, The Lexus and the Olive Tree, Tom Friedman says: "The hidden hand of the market will never work without a hidden fist. McDonald's cannot flourish without McDonnell Douglas. And the hidden fist that keeps the world safe for Silicon Valley's technologies to flourish is called the US Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps." Perhaps this was written in a moment of vulnerability, but it's certainly the most succinct, accurate description of the project of corporate globalisation that I have read.

After September 11 and the war against terror, the hidden hand and fist have had their cover blown - and we have a clear view now of America's other weapon - the free market - bearing down on the developing world, with a clenched, unsmiling smile. The Task That Never Ends is America's perfect war, the perfect vehicle for the endless expansion of American imperialism.

In Urdu, the word for profit is fayda. Al-qaida means the word, the word of God, the law. So, in India, some of us call the War Against Terror, Al-qaida vs Al-fayda - The Word vs The Profit(no pun intended). For the moment it looks as though Al-fayda will carry the day. But then you never know...

In the past 10 years, the world's total income has increased by an average of 2.5% a year. And yet the numbers of the poor in the world has increased by 100 million. Of the top 100 biggest economies, 51 are corporations, not countries. The top 1% of the world has the same combined income as the bottom 57%, and the disparity is growing. Now, under the spreading canopy of the war against terror, this process is being hustled along. The men in suits are in an unseemly hurry. While bombs rain down, contracts are being signed, patents registered, oil pipelines laid, natural resources plundered, water privatised and democracies undermined.

But as the disparity between the rich and poor grows, the hidden fist of the free market has its work cut out. Multinational corporations on the prowl for "sweetheart deal" that yield enormous profits cannot push them through in developing countries without the active connivance of state machinery - the police, the courts, sometimes even the army. Today, corporate globalisation needs an international confederation of loyal, corrupt, preferably authoritarian governments in poorer countries, to push through unpopular reforms and quell the mutinies. It needs a press that pretends to be free. It needs courts that pretend to dispense justice. It needs nuclear bombs, standing armies, sterner immigration laws, and watchful coastal patrols to make sure that its only money, goods, patents and services that are globalised - not the free movement of people, not a respect for human rights, not international treaties on racial discrimination or chemical and nuclear weapons, or greenhouse gas emissions, climate change, or, God forbid, justice. It's as though even a gesture towards international accountability would wreck the whole enterprise.

Close to one year after the war against terror was officially flagged off in the ruins of Afghanistan, in country after country freedoms are being curtailed in the name of protecting freedom, civil liberties are being suspended in the name of protecting democracy. All kinds of dissent is being defined as "terrorism". Donald Rumsfeld said that his mission in the war against terror was to persuade the world that Americans must be allowed to continue their way of life. When the maddened king stamps his foot, slaves tremble in their quarters. So, it's hard for me to say this, but the American way of life is simply not sustainable. Because it doesn't acknowledge that there is a world beyond America.

Fortunately, power has a shelf life. When the time comes, maybe this mighty empire will, like others before it, overreach itself and implode from within. It looks as though structural cracks have already appeared. As the war against terror casts its net wider and wider, America's corporate heart is haemorrhaging. A world run by a handful of greedy bankers and CEOs whom nobody elected can't possibly last.

Soviet-style communism failed, not because it was intrinsically evil but because it was flawed. It allowed too few people to usurp too much power: 21st-century market-capitalism, American-style, will fail for the same reasons.


home www.vicpeace.org

[BirdShot]

Dissention is more American than towing the party line IMHO - if we all accepted what the president said/did, it would be against the principles that this country was founded on.

Peace,

BS

[DeRayeMustafa]

I agree with what the author had to say, especially in the beginning. The post Sept 11th climate seems to weigh heavy with a sudden surge of patriotism. To me its funny in a way and scary because before Sept 11, I didn't notice much American Pride at all. I didn't see any flags waiving or people talking about how proud they are to be an American. Matter of fact, I haven't really seen such an expression of pride since the 80's during Reagan's era. Mostly on wrestling though, but my point is that there seems to be a separation of patriot or traitor. If you're not waiving a flag or singing the Star Spangled Banner with light in your eyes and pride you are a traitor. That's what I've been getting from this whole thing pretty much. Of course I disagree with such an attitude and look, because I don't think that being disappointed with your own country or being critical of your own country makes one a traitor. That's why we have Senators and other Government officials, to express our concerns. I thought. I know as an African American male, I could never and would never have the pride the my white counterparts have, because in essence, though we are Americans, we have completely different realities. We have different viewpoints and opinions of the American experience. Not to say that all white men view America completely different than I but to speak for myself, my history with America has been both good and bad. In conclusion I say that no one can feel "brotherhood" when he has been separated, labeled and frowned upon by his "brothers", have been humiliated on numerous occassions by his "brothers" and have been told to "go back to Africa". By his "brothers". But that's me. And I'm not bitter, just honest! ;)

[MalcomBanned4?]

Or that you're opposed to free speech? Isn't calling someone anti American free speech?:confused:
It turns out that while Saddam was carrying out his worst atrocities, the US and UK governments were his close allies. So what changed? 1. Cold war ended (it was in all the papers). 2.Sadams actions, Irans inactions combined with #1 moved Iraq up on the "bad guys" list.;) . America is a great country but we can't fix all the worlds problems all at once, just working on the top of the list.

[abu Yasir]

"21st-century market-capitalism, American-style, will fail for the same reasons."
As Muslims, we don't need someone to tell us the U.S. will fail. Allah SWT tells us that every nation has it’s ajal (lifespan): "And every nation has it's term, and when it's term comes, they cannot put it off an hour nor advance it!" (al-A'raf:34), also, "No nation can outstrip it's term" (al-Hijr:4-5).
All kufr is based on weak foundations. Their beliefs and life’s' systems are based on doubtful precepts, and do not withstand intellectual scrutiny. One day our grandchildren INSH'ALLAH will sit on our laps and beg us to tell them stories not about Mickey Mouse or other American fantasies but about how the world was ruled by the democracy and freedom brigade. But then the joke will be on our generation of Muslims - how did we allow such fallacies to dominate humanity???

[hen]

Hi Deraye Mustafa,
Are the brothers at the end of your post white, black, muslim, or are you referring to lyrics from a song?

I agree with what you said about a white americans reality and a black americans( which is a better term to use black or african american?) reality are different here in the US. Im trying to understand the reality of the black american.

Hen


Originally posted by DeRayeMustafa
I agree with what the author had to say, especially in the beginning. The post Sept 11th climate seems to weigh heavy with a sudden surge of patriotism. To me its funny in a way and scary because before Sept 11, I didn't notice much American Pride at all. I didn't see any flags waiving or people talking about how proud they are to be an American. Matter of fact, I haven't really seen such an expression of pride since the 80's during Reagan's era. Mostly on wrestling though, but my point is that there seems to be a separation of patriot or traitor. If you're not waiving a flag or singing the Star Spangled Banner with light in your eyes and pride you are a traitor. That's what I've been getting from this whole thing pretty much. Of course I disagree with such an attitude and look, because I don't think that being disappointed with your own country or being critical of your own country makes one a traitor. That's why we have Senators and other Government officials, to express our concerns. I thought. I know as an African American male, I could never and would never have the pride the my white counterparts have, because in essence, though we are Americans, we have completely different realities. We have different viewpoints and opinions of the American experience. Not to say that all white men view America completely different than I but to speak for myself, my history with America has been both good and bad. In conclusion I say that no one can feel "brotherhood" when he has been separated, labeled and frowned upon by his "brothers", have been humiliated on numerous occassions by his "brothers" and have been told to "go back to Africa". By his "brothers". But that's me. And I'm not bitter, just honest! ;)

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by MalcomBanned4?
Isn't calling someone anti American free speech?:confused: 1. Cold war ended (it was in all the papers). 2.Sadams actions, Irans inactions combined with #1 moved Iraq up on the "bad guys" list.;) . America is a great country but we can't fix all the worlds problems all at once, just working on the top of the list.

malcom, you make me smile

lemme have some of that koolaid they make you dring everyday, it must do wonders for your blood pressure

seriously, i really think you get your perspective of life from www.newsmax.com, very right wing, very patriotic, to the point you dont see the forest for the trees

hey, look at it this way, when we die, you can raise your flag and i can raise my salats

i think salats beat a flag, everytime

[Gibran]

Originally posted by abu Yasir
"21st-century market-capitalism, American-style, will fail for the same reasons."
As Muslims, we don't need someone to tell us the U.S. will fail. Allah SWT tells us that every nation has it’s ajal (lifespan): "And every nation has it's term, and when it's term comes, they cannot put it off an hour nor advance it!" (al-A'raf:34), also, "No nation can outstrip it's term" (al-Hijr:4-5).
All kufr is based on weak foundations. Their beliefs and life’s' systems are based on doubtful precepts, and do not withstand intellectual scrutiny. One day our grandchildren INSH'ALLAH will sit on our laps and beg us to tell them stories not about Mickey Mouse or other American fantasies but about how the world was ruled by the democracy and freedom brigade. But then the joke will be on our generation of Muslims - how did we allow such fallacies to dominate humanity???

Well, freedom and democracy hardly dominate the planet, sadly. And do I read you right in thinking that you're yearning for a time when freedom and democracy are distant memories?

<shudder>

Peace,

Gibran

[AbuMubarak]

gibran, i think we all have different views of what freedom is

my basic thought is that i have the freedom to get up in the morning, go where i want to go, buy what i want to buy, open a new business, etc

but i would also love having the freedom from oppression, sexual exploitations, usury/interest, thieving politicians, paganism, kufr, and those sorts of things

under my ideal political system, you would be free to be who you are (you wont be able to get any alcohol or buy playboy or go out with your girlfriend, but other than that, you would be free)

do we differ?

[DeRayeMustafa]

Originally posted by Hen
Hi Deraye Mustafa,
Are the brothers at the end of your post white, black, muslim, or are you referring to lyrics from a song?

I agree with what you said about a white americans reality and a black americans( which is a better term to use black or african american?) reality are different here in the US. Im trying to understand the reality of the black american.

Hen

The brothers I was refrerring to are pretty much my white counterparts. Those who are fellow Americans, born of the same land of my birth but who look at me, judge before knowing me and dislike me simply because of the color of my skin. I admit, race relations in America have improved a bit within the past 30 years i.e. no segregation, no more lynchings, no "legal" form of separation and discrimination (but forms of it do exist.)

As far as the reality of the black american, its complicated in ways. Of course there is a hardness or a feeling of resentment possibly in some of our hearts due to the fact that we were completely cut off from our culture and history, our past, and were subjegated to endure years of not only physical torture at the hands of our white counter parts, but also psychological maltreatment and humiliation for the majority of our stay here in America. So obviously we aren't going to consider ourselves completely accepted as "Americans" if 1. we aren't even considered completely "American" and if, for example 9 out of a 10 year stay somewhere you were contantly kicked and spit on. Now, I'm not one to dwell too much on the past, but I acknowledge its importance. I'm not one to talk about how the white man has done this and about how the white man did that or how the white man is holding me back. I'm smart enough to know that not all white men are against me and I'm also smart enough to know that only Allah can bring harm or good to me and besides that the rest is up to me, but at the same time I'm not naive. Because I remember history and understand that history is only yestarday's news. News from a yestarday that was only yestarday, not hundreds of years ago.


But like I said, I'm not bitter. I don't dislike white people or any ethnic group because of their nationallity, because I don't want to commit the same mistakes. You can't fight fire with fire, because all that does is add to the fire. In the end it would only burn everything up. Put it out with water. ;)

[Gibran]

Originally posted by DeRayeMustafa
The brothers I was refrerring to are pretty much my white counterparts. Those who are fellow Americans, born of the same land of my birth but who look at me, judge before knowing me and dislike me simply because of the color of my skin. I admit, race relations in America have improved a bit within the past 30 years i.e. no segregation, no more lynchings, no "legal" form of separation and discrimination (but forms of it do exist.)

As far as the reality of the black american, its complicated in ways. Of course there is a hardness or a feeling of resentment possibly in some of our hearts due to the fact that we were completely cut off from our culture and history, our past, and were subjegated to endure years of not only physical torture at the hands of our white counter parts, but also psychological maltreatment and humiliation for the majority of our stay here in America. So obviously we aren't going to consider ourselves completely accepted as "Americans" if 1. we aren't even considered completely "American" and if, for example 9 out of a 10 year stay somewhere you were contantly kicked and spit on. Now, I'm not one to dwell too much on the past, but I acknowledge its importance. I'm not one to talk about how the white man has done this and about how the white man did that or how the white man is holding me back. I'm smart enough to know that not all white men are against me and I'm also smart enough to know that only Allah can bring harm or good to me and besides that the rest is up to me, but at the same time I'm not naive. Because I remember history and understand that history is only yestarday's news. News from a yestarday that was only yestarday, not hundreds of years ago.


But like I said, I'm not bitter. I don't dislike white people or any ethnic group because of their nationallity, because I don't want to commit the same mistakes. You can't fight fire with fire, because all that does is add to the fire. In the end it would only burn everything up. Put it out with water. ;)

Deraye, these are wise words.

Peace,

Gibran

[hen]

okay, thanks. Im really interested in racial reconciliation.

Hen


Originally posted by DeRayeMustafa
The brothers I was refrerring to are pretty much my white counterparts. Those who are fellow Americans, born of the same land of my birth but who look at me, judge before knowing me and dislike me simply because of the color of my skin. I admit, race relations in America have improved a bit within the past 30 years i.e. no segregation, no more lynchings, no "legal" form of separation and discrimination (but forms of it do exist.)

As far as the reality of the black american, its complicated in ways. Of course there is a hardness or a feeling of resentment possibly in some of our hearts due to the fact that we were completely cut off from our culture and history, our past, and were subjegated to endure years of not only physical torture at the hands of our white counter parts, but also psychological maltreatment and humiliation for the majority of our stay here in America. So obviously we aren't going to consider ourselves completely accepted as "Americans" if 1. we aren't even considered completely "American" and if, for example 9 out of a 10 year stay somewhere you were contantly kicked and spit on. Now, I'm not one to dwell too much on the past, but I acknowledge its importance. I'm not one to talk about how the white man has done this and about how the white man did that or how the white man is holding me back. I'm smart enough to know that not all white men are against me and I'm also smart enough to know that only Allah can bring harm or good to me and besides that the rest is up to me, but at the same time I'm not naive. Because I remember history and understand that history is only yestarday's news. News from a yestarday that was only yestarday, not hundreds of years ago.


But like I said, I'm not bitter. I don't dislike white people or any ethnic group because of their nationallity, because I don't want to commit the same mistakes. You can't fight fire with fire, because all that does is add to the fire. In the end it would only burn everything up. Put it out with water. ;)

[AbuMubarak]

ARE YOU A PATRIOT?

JOHN KAMINSKI

The USA Patriot Act, now passed and the law of the land, has
eliminated the Constitutional guarantee of probable cause when
investigating a crime, and now allows the police — at any time
and for any reason — to enter and search your house, your files,
your bank account — and not even tell you about it.

Are you a patriot? Well, the fact of the matter is, you are
whether you want to be or not. But are you an American or a
mindless corporate stooge? Well, that's another question.

The recent passage and signing of the Patriot Act has
effectively nullified at least six amendments of the Bill of
Rights addendum to the U.S. Constitution. As a result of this,
America is longer America, but a police state, pure and simple.
This Patriot Bill is, in fact, a massive violation of the
Constitution it purports to uphold and improve.

Among other things, it mandates that judges give police search
warrants when they ask for them, for any reason. In fact, judges
can't deny these warrants to police, because police don't need a
stated reason to ask for them.

The Bill of Rights is the cornerstone of American freedom.
During the debates on the adoption of the Constitution in the
1790s, its opponents repeatedly charged that the Constitution as
drafted would open the way to tyranny by the central government.
Many states would not have signed the original Constitution
without knowing that these amendments would be added, according
to the federal website which displays the Constitution. These
amendments became known as the Bill of Rights, which Americans
have cherished, protected and fought for for over 200 years.

The Patriot Act rushed through Congress and signed by President
George W. Bush is a major step toward a totalitarian state in
which individual liberty is crushed by the whim of police and
corporate demagogues masquerading as patriots.

The Patriot Act:

- Violates the First Amendment freedom of speech guarantee,
right to peaceably assemble provision, and petition the
government for redress of grievances provision; it violates the
First Amendment to the Constitution three times. More on this
below.

- Violates the Fourth Amendment guarantee of probable cause in
astonishingly major and repeated ways. The Fourth Amendment to
the Constitution reads: "The right of the people to be secure in
their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable
searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants
shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be
searched, and the persons of things to be seized." The Patriot
Act, now passed and the law of the land, has revoked the
necessity for probable cause, and now allows the police, at any
time and for any reason, to enter and search your house — and
not even tell you about it.

- Violates the Fifth Amendment by allowing for indefinite
incarceration without trial for those deemed by the Attorney
General to be threats to national security. The Fifth Amendment
guarantees that no person shall be deprived of life, liberty or
property without due process of law, and the Patriot Act does
away with due process. It even allows people to be kept in
prison for life without even a trial.

- Violates the Sixth Amendment guarantee of the right to a
speedy and public trial. Now you may get no trial at all, ever.

- Violates the Eighth Amendment (cruel and unusual punishment).

- Violates the 13th Amendment (punishment without conviction).

Most of the following information is taken from the ACLU's
written objections to Congress before and after the passage of
the Patriot Act. My comments are in brackets [].

The Patriot Act does the following (I'm putting the immigration
stuff at the bottom because that least affects most of the
people who will be reading this):

- [It keeps judges out of the process and lets cops do what they
want (cops meaning FBI, CIA, etc.)] It minimizes judicial
supervision of telephone and Internet surveillance by law
enforcement authorities in anti-terrorism investigations and in
routine criminal investigations unrelated to terrorism.
[Unrelated to terrorism — that means anything. How long do you
think before that includes political dissent? Oops, too late,
that's already happened.]

- It expands the ability of the government to conduct secret
searches — again in anti-terrorism investigations and in routine
criminal investigations unrelated to terrorism. [Unrelated to
terrorism — that means anything they want it to mean. If we
don't agree with Nazi Republican ideas, they can now arrest us.]

- It gives the Attorney General and the Secretary of State the
power to designate domestic groups as terrorist organizations
and block any non-citizen who belongs to them from entering the
country. Under this provision the payment of membership dues is
a deportable offense. [That means, among other things, that Bush
and Ashcroft can decide Greenpeace and Ralph Nader are
terrorists, and under this law, it can put them in jail.]

- It grants the FBI broad access to sensitive medical,
financial, mental health, and educational records about
individuals without having to show evidence of a crime and
without a court order. [It means they can do what they want for
no good reason, except to persecute and imprison people with
humanistic, noncorporate rip-off views.]

- It could lead to large-scale investigations of American
citizens for "intelligence" purposes and use of intelligence
authorities to by-pass probable cause requirements in criminal
cases. [Bye bye peace movement. You're all going to jail; me
too.]

- It puts the CIA and other intelligence agencies back in the
business of spying on Americans by giving the Director of
Central Intelligence the authority to identify priority targets
for intelligence surveillance in the United States. [This is
what America worked so hard for all those years to eliminate.]

- It allows searches of highly personal financial records
without notice and without judicial review based on a very low
standard that does not require probable cause of a crime or even
relevancy to an ongoing terrorism investigation. [They can do
any of this stuff without any reason whatsoever. This is the
kind of freedom these fascists always wanted — freedom to put
everyone who disagrees with them in jail.]

- It creates a broad new definition of "domestic terrorism" that
could sweep in people who engage in acts of political protest
and subject them to wiretapping and enhanced penalties. [This
means they can jail anyone who disagrees with them, and keep
them in jail for life without a trial.]

On immigration specifically, the new law permits the detention
of non-citizens facing deportation based merely on the Attorney
General's certification that he has "reasonable grounds to
believe" the non-citizen endangers national security. While
immigration or criminal charges must be filed within seven days,
these charges need not have anything to do with terrorism, but
can be minor visa violations of the kind that normally would not
result in detention at all. Non-citizens ordered removed on visa
violations could be indefinitely detained if they are stateless,
their country of origin refuses to accept them, or they are
granted relief from deportation because they would be tortured
if they were returned to their country of origin.

It permits the Attorney General to indefinitely incarcerate or
detain non-citizens based on mere suspicion, and to deny
readmission to the United States of non-citizens (including
lawful permanent residents) for engaging in speech protected by
the First Amendment. [Or, what used to be the First Amendment.
Now, it doesn't exist.]

Let me just take a bit more of your valuable time to make a
couple of points crystal clear, again using material from the
ACLU's objections to passage of the Patriot Act.

Wiretapping and Intelligence Surveillance

The wiretapping and intelligence provisions in the USA Patriot
Act sound two themes: they minimize the role of a judge in
ensuring that law enforcement wiretapping is conducted legally
and with proper justification, and they permit use of
intelligence investigative authority to by-pass normal criminal
procedures that protect privacy. Specifically:

1. The USA Patriot Act allows the government to use its
intelligence gathering power to circumvent the standard that
must be met for criminal wiretaps. Currently FISA surveillance,
which does not contain many of the same checks and balances that
govern wiretaps for criminal purposes, can be used only when
foreign intelligence gathering is the primary purpose. The new
law allows use of FISA surveillance authority even if the
primary purpose were a criminal investigation. Intelligence
surveillance merely needs to be only a "significant" purpose.
This provision authorizes unconstitutional physical searches and
wiretaps: though it is searching primarily for evidence of
crime, law enforcement conducts a search without probable cause
of crime.

2. The USA Patriot Act extends a very low threshold of proof for
access to Internet communications that are far more revealing
than numbers dialed on a phone. Under current law, a law
enforcement agent can get a pen register or trap and trace order
requiring the telephone company to reveal the numbers dialed to
and from a particular phone. To get such an order, law
enforcement must simply certify to a judge — who must grant the
order — that the information to be obtained is "relevant to an
ongoing criminal investigation." This is a very low level of
proof, far less than probable cause. This provision apparently
applies to law enforcement efforts to determine what websites a
person had visited, which is like giving law enforcement the
power — based only on its own certification — to require the
librarian to report on the books you had perused while visiting
the public library. This provision extends a low standard of
proof — far less than probable cause — to actual "content"
information.

3. In allowing for "nationwide service" of pen register and trap
and trace orders, the law further marginalizes the role of the
judiciary. It authorizes what would be the equivalent of a blank
warrant in the physical world: the court issues the order, and
the law enforcement agent fills in the places to be searched.
This is not consistent with the important Fourth Amendment
privacy protection of requiring that warrants specify the place
to be searched. Under this legislation, a judge is unable to
meaningfully monitor the extent to which her order was being
used to access information about Internet communications.

4. The Act also grants the FBI broad access in "intelligence"
investigations to records about a person maintained by a
business. The FBI need only certify to a court that it is
conducting an intelligence investigation and that the records it
seeks may be relevant. With this new power, the FBI can force a
business to turn over a person's educational, medical,
financial, mental health and travel records based on a very low
standard of proof and without meaningful judicial oversight.

The ACLU noted that the FBI already had broad authority to
monitor telephone and Internet communications. Most of the
changes apply not just to surveillance of terrorists, but
instead to all surveillance in the United States. [All
surveillance. The WTO geeks will love this one. Now we can be
just like China.]

Law enforcement authorities -- even when they are required to
obtain court orders - have great leeway under current law to
investigate suspects in terrorist attacks. Current law already
provided, for example, that wiretaps can be obtained for the
crimes involved in terrorist attacks, including destruction of
aircraft and aircraft piracy.

The FBI also already had authority to intercept these
communications without showing probable cause of crime for
"intelligence" purposes under the Foreign Intelligence
Surveillance Act. In fact, FISA wiretaps now exceed wiretapping
for all domestic criminal investigations. The standards for
obtaining a FISA wiretap are lower than the standards for
obtaining a criminal wiretap.

Criminal Justice

The law dramatically expands the use of secret searches.
Normally, a person is notified when law enforcement conducts a
search. In some cases regarding searches for electronic
information, law enforcement authorities can get court
permission to delay notification of a search. The USA Patriot
Act extends the authority of the government to request "secret
searches" to every criminal case. This vast expansion of power
goes far beyond anything necessary to conduct terrorism
investigations.

The Act also allows for the broad sharing of sensitive
information in criminal cases with intelligence agencies,
including the CIA, the NSA, the INS and the Secret Service. It
permits sharing of sensitive grand jury and wiretap information
without judicial review or any safeguards regarding the future
use or dissemination of such information.

These information sharing authorizations and mandates
effectively put the CIA back in the business of spying on
Americans: Once the CIA makes clear the kind of information it
seeks, law enforcement agencies can use tools like wiretaps and
intelligence searches to provide data to the CIA. In fact, the
law specifically gives the Director of Central Intelligence -
who heads the CIA -- the power to identify domestic intelligence
requirements.

The law also creates a new crime of "domestic terrorism." The
new offense threatens to transform protesters into terrorists if
they engage in conduct that "involves acts dangerous to human
life." Members of Operation Rescue, the Environmental Liberation
Front and Greenpeace, for example, have all engaged in
activities that could subject them to prosecution as terrorists.
Then, under this law, the dominos begin to fall. Those who
provide lodging or other assistance to these "domestic
terrorists" could have their homes wiretapped and could be
prosecuted.

[If you have any doubt that these are the trappings of a police
state, then you need to go back to elementary school and read
about the Constitution, which we no longer have.]

[Fox News Channel reports tonight that 90% of the American
people are really happy with what Bush has done. I think
somebody wrote this all in a book once, that when a free people
gave away their freedom, they did it happily and with much
fanfare.]

[John Kaminski lives in Englewood, Florida. E-mail:
skylax@home.com ]

[© Copyrighted 1997-2001 www.commondreams.org ]

==================================================

INTERNET-WEB LINKS:

The New USA Patriot Act
ARE YOU A PATRIOT?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InfoTimes/message/1180
http://commondreams.org/views01/1109-09.htm

Bush-Bliar Rebels Are Rapists
Are these rapists any better than the hard-liners they replace?
http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/text_only.cfm?id=122424

WHO'S READING YOUR E-MAIL?
Draconian Law Enforcement is not a Solution to Terrorism
http://www.tompaine.com/features/2001/11/06/1.html

We Asked Then, We Ask Now:
What Are We Fighting For?
http://www.rense.com/general16/weaskedthen.htm

Criticism Of Bush's War On Terrorism Mounting
http://www.rense.com/general16/mnt.htm

Homeland Insecurity:
Phoenix, Chaos, The Enterprise,
and The Politics of Terror In America
http://www.counterpunch.org/homeland1.html

An Imperial Nightmare
The new appetite for intervention will only increase the
likelihood of anti-western terror
http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,589660,00.htm
l

Middle East Impasse
America Under Siege
America's Hyperreal War on Terrorism
http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/05/op.htm

Torture by Proxy
http://www.counterpunch.org/snell1.html

Russia's Nuclear Weapons Fears
http://www.thescotsman.co.uk/world.cfm?id=122368

India Says It Has Developed Hydrogen Bomb
http://www.rense.com/general16/very.htm

Q and A on the War
http://www.counterpunch.org/tariqtalk.html

Israel Uses Torture in Defiance of Court Ban, Report Says
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1112-04.htm

An Afghanistan Primer:
The Good, The Bad and The VERY Bad
http://www.rense.com/general16/very.htm

UN Told Poverty Breeding Ground for Terrorism
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1111-01.htm

German Anti-Nuke Activists Protest Waste Convoy from France
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1112-01.htm

Showdown Looms as Nuke Train Approaches German Dump
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1112-05.htm

18 DEMANDS of the NATIONAL ALLIANCE
To: The Government of Israel
http://www.natall.com/demands
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/InfoTimes/message/1170

Did Israeli Mossad Know?
http://www.blackelectorate.com/articles.asp?ID=480

Lies, Hypocrisy, Hatred And The War On Terror
http://www.rense.com/general16/lieshypocrisyhatred.htm

The Truth About Imperialistic Terrorists
- http://www.geocities.com/americanterrorism
- http://www.geocities.com/americanstateterrorism
- http://www.angelfire.com/dc/americanterrorism
- http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism
- http://www.wakefieldcam.freeserve.co.uk/classicquotes.htm

Exposing Big Lies of the Pro-War Propaganda Media
http://www.11september.20m.com

Reporters Notebook Bulletin Board
http://reportersnotebook.com/newforum/indexforum.html

JEW WATCH
http://www.jewwatch.com

Islamic News Information Network (ININ)
http://www.inin.net

Islamic Association For Palestine (IAP)
http://www.iap.org

Common Dreams
http://www.commondreams.org

CounterPunch - America's Newsletter
http://www.counterpunch.org
CounterPunch: Complete Coverage of 9-11 and
the War on Afghanistan
http://www.counterpunch.org/wtcarchive.html

Anti-War
http://www.antiwar.com

International Action Center (IAC)
http://www.iacenter.org
Stop War and End Racism
http://www.internationalanswer.org

ZNet - Z Magazine
- http://www.zmag.org
- http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm
- http://www.zmag.org/ZNET.htm

Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR)
http://www.fair.org

Institute for Public Accuracy (IPA)
http://www.accuracy.org

The Nation
http://www.thenation.com

The Progressive
http://www.theprogressive.org

U.S. Map of Human Rights Groups
http://www.tolerance.org/maps/human_rights/state.jsp?state_id=9

Fight Hate and Promote Telerance
http://www.tolerance.org

Serendipity Website
http://serendipity.magnet.ch

[abdulhakeem]

''Hating America''
Printed on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 @ 01:09:17 EST

By John Chuckman
YellowTimes.org Columnist (Canada)

(YellowTimes.org) – Recently, there has been a thunderous outburst of accusations about "hating America" with lightning strokes crackling towards France and Germany. Some of this storm front rattled into Canada when a member of Parliament, upset over Mr. Bush's relentless demand for war, made the mistake of muttering an aside about hating Americans, a statement which any thoughtful person understood immediately as frustration rather than hatred.

But how is it even possible to hate so vast and complex a thing as America?

America is sweaty, droning backwaters, and it is also great institutions of research and culture. America is shameful ghettos and shantytowns, and it is Frank Lloyd Wright, Louis Sullivan, Daniel Burnham, and Frederick Law Olmstead. It is the hateful shouting of right-wing radio personalities, and it is Studs Terkel reminiscing on great past events. It is Know Nothings, and it is Lincoln; lynchings and Roosevelt's Four Freedoms. It is "freedom-loving" patriots who bought, sold, and beat slaves, ran Loyalists out of the country and stole their property when they didn't just burn them out, and it is Benjamin Franklin. It is local sheriffs enjoying petty tyrannies, gangs running neighborhoods, crooked politicians fixing elections, and it is the Bill of Rights. It is a churning sea of selfishness and unprincipled grasping, a hideous noise of marketing and insincerity, and it is sacrifice and devotion to principles. America has a character historian Page Smith called, in a usage that is now dated and inaccurate but still understandable, "schizophrenic."

One of the threads holding together the vast, chaotic, noisy battle that is America is the simplistic patriotism instilled like religious fervor with anthems, uniformed marching bands, baton twirlers, slogans, color guards, and a pledge foisted on children that has always smacked of what one expects in authoritarian societies.

Patriotic excess has at least two roots. One is the desire by those with power to hold this explosive thing called America together and to use its resources and influence to their own ends. Thus, we almost never see figures like George Bush or **** Cheney without American flag pins on their lapels and big American flags as backdrops to speeches, as though one could possibly forget from what country they come. These symbols are being used as powerful totems. You can't sneer at the flag even when it is a pathetic mediocrity or when an essentially evil figure is wrapping himself in it.

The other root is the almost excruciating sensitivity many Americans feel about their national identity. This is something one expects to find in any young and raw society, but America does appear a bit slow in maturing beyond it. Undoubtedly, the discomforting nature (for some) of a highly diverse population whose composition actually keeps changing provides a retarding effect. So, too, does America's crude social Darwinism. This is a land where it is not hard to find a lot of loneliness and anger, people ready to embrace those chest-thumping moments of presumed society.

Of course, a confident individual doesn't need to strut or brag or threaten. Brash patriotic displays reveal a childish need for constant reassurance. This doubt and uncertainty is a theme running through American history with, for example, the highly self-conscious efforts of the Concord Group about seeing an American literature created, or with authors like Henry James, T.S. Elliot, or James Baldwin effectively fleeing either the excesses or the cultural sterility of their native land.

That is the more charitable explanation, and I believe it holds for the most part. But there also is that dark corner of the American soul with its attraction to fascism. After all, fascism represents in part a desire for certainty and predictability. Perhaps only the Hitler-tinged figures of the world feel the need for a vast dumb-show of patriotism every time they give a speech or make an appearance, and I believe what we see in George Bush, who is more given over to this display than most American presidents, hints at something quite dark and fearful.

Many outsiders do not understand that in American society, two or more great and divergent currents run simultaneously at all times on most issues. I refer to something more profound than the existence of two political parties, neither of which stands for any great principles. For example, many think of America as the land of casualness, lack of formality, hatred of bureaucracy, and the embrace of the individual. And in part, they are right, but only in part.

At the same time that noisy right-wing hawks blubber night and day about unlimited individualism, Americans in their ordinary lives experience some of the world's more intense spasms of mindless bureaucracy and anti-liberalism, often the result of legislation created by the very same right-wing forces with their seemingly irresistible desire for control.

As any potential immigrant, even the spouse of an American citizen ostensibly entitled to live in the country, soon learns, the paperwork, restrictions, and bureaucratic hurdles of legal immigration to the United States are formidable, ungenerous, and costly, something that was true even before 9/11.

As anyone who has taken a mortgage in the United States knows, the transaction involves one of the largest and most complex piles of paperwork that can be imagined. Something like an inch-thick stack of legalistic documents no ordinary person can hope to understand must be signed.

As anyone who has filed income tax in the United States knows, the forms and rules must rank as among the ugliest, most complex, and indecipherable on the planet.

And, of course, there are the many intrusive, blundering public and secret agencies with which America abounds. The FBI, the NSA, the CIA, the ATF, the DEA, Homeland Security, military intelligence, naval intelligence, State Department intelligence, state and urban police security agencies, the INS… New ones are created regularly, especially when right-wing extremists enjoy power as they do now.

Albert Einstein wrote to a friend in 1947, "America has changed… It has become pretty military and aggressive. The fear of Russia is the means of making it digestible to the plebs." Since Einstein was a refugee from Nazi Germany and always displayed great sensitivity to signs of authoritarianism, his words offer an important historical insight to distinct change in the external policies of the United States. What has followed is a long series of colonial wars and interventions, a remarkable portion of which have been unsuccessful and pointlessly bloody or have resulted in the establishment of tyrannies. It is not hard for a thinking person to find things to "hate" here without reflecting on any broader concepts of America.

As for what Canadians represent, I can only think of Canada fighting Hitler two years before America, suffering in World War II about twice as many deaths per capita as Americans did. I think of America's kidnapped diplomats in Iran and the brave Canadian diplomat who hid some of them from danger. I think of the wonderful people of Newfoundland generously, without charge, putting up hundreds American air-travelers grounded for days following 9/11. I think of the many generous gifts Canadians sent to 9/11 families. I think of Toronto sending a fleet of men and equipment to Buffalo, New York, when it was buried in seven feet of snow.

Anyone with sense would be grateful for a neighbor like that, but Canadians still have no use for your damned war.

[John Chuckman is former chief economist for a large Canadian oil company. He has many interests and is a lifelong student of history. He writes with a passionate desire for honesty, the rule of reason, and concern for human decency. He is a member of no political party and takes exception to what has been called America's "culture of complaint" with its habit of reducing every important issue to an unproductive argument between two simplistically defined groups. John regards it as a badge of honor to have left the United States as a poor young man from the South Side of Chicago when the country embarked on the pointless murder of something like three million Vietnamese in their own land because they happened to embrace the wrong economic loyalties. He lives in Canada, which he is fond of calling "the peaceable kingdom."]

John Chuckman encourages your comments: jchuckman@YellowTimes.org

http://www.yellowtimes.org/article.php?sid=1144&mode=thread&order=0

[AbuMubarak]

Monday November12 19 : 54AM ET
U.S. wants its MTV to get message out in Arab world

By Pamela McClintock

WASHINGTON (Variety) - The architects of the government's post-Sept. 11 propaganda war may well want their MTV on the frontlines in the Arab world.

Rushing to shift perceptions of the United States in the Islamic world, Washington and Hollywood are now brainstorming about how the entertainment business might help convey a wider -- and more positive -- range of perceptions about America. And no demo is more crucial to the future of Islamic-Western relations than the15 - 30age group. That's where MTV comes in.

The potential to intersperse messages between programming segments -- as with the ``Rock the Vote'' campaign, for example -- makes the music cable channel an obvious vehicle. And a top priority for MTV is to give young people a way to express their views via local MTV channels around the world, whether through man-on-the street interviews or interactive shows. Such efforts were under way before the attacks, but the events of Sept. 11 brought a new sense of urgency.

MTV already has held a videoconference with its worldwide staff to discuss what initiatives it may take. Recently, itlaunched a global pen-pal service, encouraging a discussion of world events. One idea now being considered is to include programming that would specifically encourage dialogue between MTV viewers in U.S. and those in Middle Eastern and other predominately Muslim markets.

MTV Intl. is available in parts of the Mideast via the Showtime platform, but distribution in that region is still complicated, and there is intermittent censorship. The cable network believes there is great room for expansion, considering that just under half of the 25 million Mideast TV households have access to satellite.

MTV has made significant inroads in India and Asia, with MTV India recently voted the most popular music channel in Pakistan.

While MTV has been able to build strong, local outlets in Asia and India, it's had a tougher time in the Mideast. It does air one show in Arabic, ``Mashaweer,'' in which local VJs present a mix of Arabic, southern Euro and Latin-oriented music. There are discussions about more local shows and the development of a24 -hour channel in Arabic.

Also, the music network likes the notion of an exchange program, whereby staff members in one part of the word get the chance to meet up with their counterparts in studios elsewhere.

What such efforts on the part of MTV and other U.S. outlets abroad will cost is still anyone's guess. But signs are that, spurred by Washington, money will be spent.

Reuters/Variety REUTERS

[Jones]

John Chuckman has it all wrong. Of course there are some things that still aren't quite right here, but we're working on it. Inasmuch as he voluntarily ran out on this county, the land of his birth, I don't believe he has much right to try to denigrate what he spit on as he bolted out the freaking door. He didn't have to leave over Vietnam, he had choices. Nuts to him. Even reading that diatribe of his made my skin crawl. He made everything seem so evil, so ugly, and it's not quite what he makes it out to be. If I was a resident of another land and read that, I would never want to visit here based on what he wrote. He deserves a boot in thee eye, as Frankey would say. Just my opinion.
:(

[hughjorgens]

AbdulHakeem, you appear to be a simple "cut and paster" who searches out any information with supports your beliefs and then posts it as truth. Of course, you ignore any information that doesn't conform to you view of the world.

That is ok, as long as you don't fall into believing that you know the "truth."

[Hesperian]

Notice who Mr. Chuckman used to work for: "...a large Canadian oil company." There is that oil thing again. Unnamed of course. Then he doesn't have to answer for which lowlife his company delt with to get their concessions.

[AbuMubarak]

yeah, its me, but i want to clarify something to the patriots that have seemed to register and post en masse

first off, i am american, i was born here and the way things look, i will probably die here

but being american is not what is most important to me, not one bit

because i could have been born in russia, china, afghanistan, or whereever, so being american is no big deal, its just the place i was born, its where i live

i travel thru this country and i see a lot i love here, most of all, the beauty of the land, secondly, my family (muslim and non-muslim) my friends are all here, again, this is my home

but thats my extent of love for america, for many reasons

as a muslim, i must love what Allah loves, and thats truth, which seems to be lacking not only in america, but all over the world, amongst the muslim and non-muslim parts of the world

what do i mean by truth? i mean exactly that, beginning with that there is nothing worthy of worship but Allah and Muhammad (sas) is the messenger of Allah

that truth is growing, not only in america, but all over the world, and soon it will take more than cnn to stop it

now regarding that patriotic stuff, its all bull, all of it, its like believing in santa claus and then finding out it aint true

america was supposedly built on certain principles, but those principles dont ring true for everyone within america, much less for those outside of america

i have witnessed more double-talk from my american society than i could ever post here, but one thing comes to mind, the haitian crisis of the 1980's

when cubans were politically being persecuted, but baby doc duvalier was actually massacreing (sp) haitians, and what did america do? they turned them back, to that alone i say tear down the statue of liberty

now i see my country going around invading another country, and because i am against it, some of you say i am unpatriotic (i dont think anyone could ever have said i was patriotic), but the bottom line is this war is wrong, even if you take islam aside, its wrong

now add that i am muslim on top of that and i see my fellow countrymen clamoring over the invasion of another country sickens my stomach, it angers me, it upsets me, it makes me realize that after 400 years, america is still as ruthless as it was when it decimated the american indian population

so does that mean i am going out to (i forgot what hughjorgens said) i think it was me cutting people's throats? no way, thats not me, not now, not ever

but does that mean that i will say what i am saying until my last breath, yes, now and forever

so those of you who confuse bootlicking the news from cnn as truth and anyone who disagrees with the way the country is going, as being unpatriotic, i recommend you read your constitution and declaration of independence

but when i see little girls walking around with their pants below their butts, and their thongs showing, and boys walking around spending $200 on sneakers and britney spears is an idol and tv shows such as "blind date" and the ny yankees are millionaires, and god is forgotten, and ozzy osborn is deified, i am telling you, no i am warning you, things are going crazy around here

so either you can start to wake up and see what is happening to your country, to your world, or you can just follow along and repeat the pledge of allegiance till your face turns blue

Allah is our Lord, to Him we shall return, everything else shall perish, including the USA

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by hughjorgens
Raafi, I don't know if you are male or female, but you constantly clamor for American and British deaths on other boards. Why would you expect to be accepted for who you really are when you live among those you hate and want to see get their throats slit ...

you are a fake, who wants the death of democracy, but lives in one, like a weasel, slinking and protecting himself from detection while he goes to extremist sites and calls for blood...

Yawn...

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by Raafi
ok, i will admit that i have no idea what you are referring to, but i guess you know me pretty well to call me a fake

i clamored for american and british deaths? sorry i dont remember

if i wanted to slit anyone's throat near me, i would have, but that is the farthest thing from my mind, you obviously dont know me, but then again, you think you do

everyone around me knows who i am, i dont see this fake part

regarding democracy, we dont live in one, but just to entertain you for a minute, i am muslim, i strive to live by the laws of islam, as much as possible, you may be a republican and disagree with the democrats, does that mean you are a fake? if you drive 55 and want to drive 75, does that make you a fake?
weasel? slinking, protecting myself from detection? calling for blood? i dont know what you are trying to get me to say, but everything i have ever said here is what i feel, on and offline, if thats a weasel to you, i guess thats what it is

extremist sites? i dont know what that means, but i am sure you do, when you want to fill me in, i will more than answer your concerns

have a nice night

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by Raafi
and how am i protecting myself from detection, you said you know i live in new jersey

duh

[Raven]

fyi to you and everyone (including myself)...

People's grievances sound a lot more legit when they recognize some of the positives. That's one of the reasons I actually think, not just read, what people like Bilal say.

He's mentioned that the American people are GENERALLY good, but SOME of the US's policies are really messed up. I'm more likely to listen to him than someone who says they just hate America.

[unbiased]

Hi Raafi,

At least you live in a country that lets you publically express how you feel.
Others should only be so lucky.

BTW, are there any countries that are better (throwing patriotism aside for a moment)?
All nations have their problems - social, political, economic, etc...
Yet when I look around I still see millions of people wanting to go to where you are now...I wonder why....

Unbiased



Originally posted by Raafi
yeah, its me, but i want to clarify something to the patriots that have seemed to register and post en masse

first off, i am american, i was born here and the way things look, i will probably die here

but being american is not what is most important to me, not one bit

because i could have been born in russia, china, afghanistan, or whereever, so being american is no big deal, its just the place i was born, its where i live

i travel thru this country and i see a lot i love here, most of all, the beauty of the land, secondly, my family (muslim and non-muslim) my friends are all here, again, this is my home

but thats my extent of love for america, for many reasons

as a muslim, i must love what Allah loves, and thats truth, which seems to be lacking not only in america, but all over the world, amongst the muslim and non-muslim parts of the world

what do i mean by truth? i mean exactly that, beginning with that there is nothing worthy of worship but Allah and Muhammad (sas) is the messenger of Allah

that truth is growing, not only in america, but all over the world, and soon it will take more than cnn to stop it

now regarding that patriotic stuff, its all bull, all of it, its like believing in santa claus and then finding out it aint true

america was supposedly built on certain principles, but those principles dont ring true for everyone within america, much less for those outside of america

i have witnessed more double-talk from my american society than i could ever post here, but one thing comes to mind, the haitian crisis of the 1980's

when cubans were politically being persecuted, but baby doc duvalier was actually massacreing (sp) haitians, and what did america do? they turned them back, to that alone i say tear down the statue of liberty

now i see my country going around invading another country, and because i am against it, some of you say i am unpatriotic (i dont think anyone could ever have said i was patriotic), but the bottom line is this war is wrong, even if you take islam aside, its wrong

now add that i am muslim on top of that and i see my fellow countrymen clamoring over the invasion of another country sickens my stomach, it angers me, it upsets me, it makes me realize that after 400 years, america is still as ruthless as it was when it decimated the american indian population

so does that mean i am going out to (i forgot what hughjorgens said) i think it was me cutting people's throats? no way, thats not me, not now, not ever

but does that mean that i will say what i am saying until my last breath, yes, now and forever

so those of you who confuse bootlicking the news from cnn as truth and anyone who disagrees with the way the country is going, as being unpatriotic, i recommend you read your constitution and declaration of independence

but when i see little girls walking around with their pants below their butts, and their thongs showing, and boys walking around spending $200 on sneakers and britney spears is an idol and tv shows such as "blind date" and the ny yankees are millionaires, and god is forgotten, and ozzy osborn is deified, i am telling you, no i am warning you, things are going crazy around here

so either you can start to wake up and see what is happening to your country, to your world, or you can just follow along and repeat the pledge of allegiance till your face turns blue

Allah is our Lord, to Him we shall return, everything else shall perish, including the USA

[cruiser]

Raafi, in my book you are a decent person. I'm certainly not going to see eye to eye with you on a number of issues, but I believe that many of your criticisms are dead on target particularly as they relate to societal inequities and cultural values. Perspectives are different depending on where we live, how we were raised and how we raise our kids. Life in New Jersey is as foreign to me as life in Pakistan. A tiny rural community, all the parents look out for their kids and all the other kids. People help each other out all the time. No mall, no movie theater, no crime. The extent of commercialization is 2 stores, 2 restaurants, 3 churches,1 little motel and 2 bars. It's damn near a Rockwellian setting, and so America looks pretty good, domestically, from where I stand. I know it's not your deal, but I have to tell you the bars are a great community center...cruise out on your motorcycle some time..I'll keep you out of the bars and you can see a different America.

[Rae]

Ditto Cruiser
I live in a tiny rural community myself. It is as far from the stereotypical view of America as you could get. Our idea of a big night out on the town is going to play cards at the neighbors. As far as designer stores there isn't one for hundreds of miles. None of us are rich, but we take care of eachother and we don't go hungry. The worst thing the kids in the neighborhood have done this year is ride their minibikes over Granny's tomatoes.
I know this is not how it is everywhere in the US, but it is how it is in many parts. I think people are sometimes eager to paint America and Americans as being decadent, but that is only part of the picture.
Peace
Rae

[cruiser]

Originally posted by Rae
Ditto Cruiser
I live in a tiny rural community myself. It is as far from the stereotypical view of America as you could get. Our idea of a big night out on the town is going to play cards at the neighbors. As far as designer stores there isn't one for hundreds of miles. None of us are rich, but we take care of eachother and we don't go hungry. The worst thing the kids in the neighborhood have done this year is ride their minibikes over Granny's tomatoes.
I know this is not how it is everywhere in the US, but it is how it is in many parts. I think people are sometimes eager to paint America and Americans as being decadent, but that is only part of the picture.
Peace
Rae Colorado if I recall correctly ? I haven't locked my doors for three years. In fact I found some keys in a cupboard and asked my wife what they went to, she started laughing and said those are the house keys. You guys ever play sequence ? Pretty good board/card game for home grown entertainment.

[Rae]

Colorado it is. I've never played sequence, but maybe we should learn it. Rummy and kings corner are the games of choice around Lou's table. We could mix it up a bit!!
I haven't even found my keys. I guess we are pretty lucky where I live. I try to make sure that a day never goes by without expressing my gratitude for that!!
Peace
Rae

[Alexandra]

At least you have the freedom of speech here.

If you lived in Iraq, you would of been put in an acid bath or been put into a wood shreader!!!!

If I had to choose between the US and the muslim country where I was born, I would not hesitate to choose the US.

Alexandra

[cj2112]

Raafi -

I may not agree with everything you say but thanks for posting it. America is obviously a very diverse and complicated place with all sorts of opinions, world views and perspectives. The strength of US society is that it all seems to end up co-existing, no matter how messy it may seem.

I live in NYC (Brooklyn to be exact) and within my neighborhood there are Italian-Americans, African-Americans, many Arab-Americans, Jews and Hispanics who all live in very tight quarters. Despite the occasional incident, all regularly interact with each other and all peacefully pursue their own hopes and dreams.

American "culture" is indeed bizarre. The clothing, the music, the food, the bad behavior - all taken alone, they can be totally annoying or ridiculous. But when taken as a whole, it all tends to work out in the end.

In Brooklyn I have met all sorts of people whom I would normally never get to meet in the majority of American neighborhoods.

The sad irony of Sept. 11 is that NYC was the recipient of so much terror and violence. NYC, more than anywhere else in the US, is the place where people of different worldviews come together and end up living side-by-side. NYC is the best of America.

Raafi, I don't know where in NJ you live but you must know that the USA is a staggeringly large and diverse country that belies any type of real generalization.

As far as the patriotism thing, it is always easy to wrap one's self in the flag when one feels that their worldview is under assault. I wouldn't make too much of all of the patriotism issue - most Americans that I know can see that it is a bit of a ruse.

For every example of bad things that America does, there are scores of examples of good things that it does as well. Despite the fact that the US government has acted in ways that most of us would consider inappropriate (Haitians, American Indians, as you noted), the government has also gone to significant lengths to protect freedom of speech and freedom of association over time.

The most important feature of a country (in my opinion) is that it permits you to live a full life, where you can pursue your interests and dreams on your terms; and where you can raise a family in peace and security. Though the US is currently compromising the peace and security of Iraqis, I wouldn't say that violence and nation-building is the prime directive of the US.

What is happening right now in Iraq is terribly sad and unfortunate, as I have posted many times on this board. I just hope that in the end that some measure of safety and security returns to the people of Iraq similar to what most Americans enjoy here.

[M.H.Mubarak]

All the beauty of this continent can not be captured in one posting.

But the Civil Liberties which we so enjoy are in the process of being usurped by a handful of unscrupulous individuals. They are now working quite in the open with no qualms about their intentions.

If you haven't read Raafi's post on this Poindexter chap (Ex- Nixionite) that has been hired to create a National Data base on every "American", then just ask him to guide you there.

This is no "conspiarcy theory"... it's history in the making!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Compliments of Kaphitgoyim

>Here is part of the connundrum:

The guys I bolded are signifigant. Someone needs to look into the rest of them.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/ <
Statement of Principle signed by-
Elliott Abrams
Gary Bauer
William J. Bennett
Jeb Bush
**** Cheney
Eliot A. Cohen
Midge Decter
Paula Dobriansky
Steve Forbes
Aaron Friedberg
Francis Fukuyama
Frank Gaffney
Fred C. Ikle
Donald Kagan
Zalmay Khalilzad
I. Lewis Libby
Norman Podhoretz
Dan Quayle
Peter W. Rodman
Stephen P. Rosen
Henry S. Rowen
Donald Rumsfeld
Vin Weber
George Weigel
Paul Wolfowitz

There has been a lot of buzz about them on this board already, if you're looking in the right places.

[cj2112]

Originally posted by M.H.Mubarak
All the beauty of this continent can not be captured in one posting.

But the Civil Liberties which we so enjoy are in the process of being usurped by a handful of unscrupulous individuals. They are now working quite in the open with no qualms about their intentions.

If you haven't read Raafi's post on this Poindexter chap (Ex- Nixionite) that has been hired to create a National Data base on every "American", then just ask him to guide you there.

This is no "conspiarcy theory"... it's history in the making!


MH -

I agree with you. But I think that there has been no lack of criticism here in the US about the Patriot Act and the potential loss of civil liberties. Most Americans I know are completely enraged about the Patriot Act.

There is obviously no excuse or cause, in my opinion, for the Bush Administration's goal to compromise the civil liberties of certain members of our society. Ashcroft's response to the "enemy in our midst" problem is ridiculously heavy-handed and ideally elements of the Patriot Act will be invalidated by the US Supreme Court.

And I agree that the Poindexter effort is scary (I'm very familiar with who Poindexter is, what his history is, and what he has been asked to do). But this is the first time that something like this is being tried in the US. Time will tell how it ends up though it seems to be off to a rocky start.

[M.H.Mubarak]

...But more people need to learn of the programs involved, and ther needs to be a greater effort tomuster a grass roots response in both houses of the government.

[AbuMubarak]

ashcroft said that to question is to assist the terrorists

as long as you have these red, orange, yellow, blue and green alerts and people are seeing the invasion live on tv, the masses will be too scared, or nonconcerned to care about any legislation being passed

people know more about what happened on survivor than they know about the patriot act, which i found out recently is a misnomer, its an acronym for some very sinister policies

and again, what is the average person going to do? robert byrd made mention of how he disagreed with the war, and now his patriotism and mental health is being questioned

if you cant get people to stand up for their government stealing power, what hope is there for any type of prosperous (not financial) future?

[Ammarah]

Bump! For those who missed it...

[USPatriot]

Originally posted by cruiser
Colorado if I recall correctly ? I haven't locked my doors for three years. In fact I found some keys in a cupboard and asked my wife what they went to, she started laughing and said those are the house keys. You guys ever play sequence ? Pretty good board/card game for home grown entertainment.

LOL!!! I don't lock my doors either! I live in a small town in the Ozark Mtns of SW Missouri just 10 miles from where I grew up. I have a 36 acre farm and my nearest neighbor is 1/4 mile away. I know all my neighbors and they are all decent trustworthy people. We all watch out for each other here and the worst that ever happens is someone shooting a deer out of season. I have lived in the city and seen much of the world but that only made me want to come back home even more. You are correct in saying that not all parts of the country are like NY or LA.

[cruiser]

That calls for a joke..guy boards a plane headed for La, the fellow sitting next to him is white as a ghost and trembling. So the guy who just boarded asks him if he is Ok. The poor fellow says "Hell no, I just transferred to LA and have to move my family" Whats the big deal asks the newcomer ? "Gang wars, violent crimes, drugs..it's just awful." Newcomer tells him, now..it's not that bad..find a nice neighborhood, get your kids in a good school..hell, I've lived here 20 years with no problem. "That's quite a load off my mind..say..what did you say you do for a living ?" Guy replies " Tailgunner on a bread truck..."

[AbuMubarak]

i loved this one

[peace2u]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
i loved this one


the joke or the thread:confused:

Peace

[Basilio]

I see a lot of hatred to Americans, and it makes ask this:

I am American, and a Muslim, are you against me for being American?

What the world needs to recognize is that America consist of many diffrent peoples, and several religions unlike any other country America consist of Latino, Asians, Africans, Arabs, and Anglo's, and each has a relative religion from Buddahism to Islam. So when you say Americans it refers to all these groups, probably what should be said is the current American adminstration instead of Americans, what the rest of the world needs to realize is that America is more than just Anglo politicians.

all countries except America have a prodominant culture, for example, in Saudia Arabia the prodominant group is Arab, In Africa we have blacks, in Mexico we have latino's, in Brittain and most of Uerope is white, and Japan there are slanted eyed people. Now with this in mind, isnt easy for these countries to assume that a countries make up is equal to theirs, therfore setting up the belief that Americans think and are the same. This of course is not so, Citizens were very split on getting Bush elected, as a matter of fact he lost the popular vote, but because of outdated electoral rules he was recognizes as the individual who one the election, Most of the votes by Americans was against the Current American Adminstration, so please if you live in another country and agree with my thinking please spread the word, so that people can realise what they are really saying when they say Americans. It would be silly to assume that all Muslims are Arab, especially when the Arab is a minority in Islam making up only 22% of all Muslims in the world.

peace

[Qassami]

:start:

:salams

Bro Basilio said: for example, in Saudia Arabia the prodominant group is Arab

Not necessarily, there are some reports that says that the Arabs are the minority in the Gulf, (e.g. SA, UAE, Q8, Oman etc). :)

[Basilio]

Originally posted by Al Qassam
:start:

:salams

Bro Basilio said: for example, in Saudia Arabia the prodominant group is Arab

Not necessarily, there are some reports that says that the Arabs are the minority in the Gulf, (e.g. SA, UAE, Q8, Oman etc). :)

Yea, I had heard something like that but it is more of a point that that exapmle made.

peace

[Qassami]

:wswrwb:

True.

But just picture this scenario... say that the indigenous people of the UK, (or in this case, the USA), became a minority in their own country... do u think they will tolerate it?

My thinks not in a million of years :D

Sorry, bit off-topic here, forgive me! But yea, we should differentiate between the gov and the public. but sometimes it's hard to do, when the media portrays that public of been 100% behind their gov / army.

[Basilio]

Whats crazy is our democratic government controls our media as much as a dictatorship would. Only diffrence is our does it under thw table and a dictatorship does it openly

[Chained_Water]

Originally posted by Basilio
Whats crazy is our democratic government controls our media

it also controls the rest of the world.. only thing is.. the rest of the world did NOT democratically elect America

[Qassami]

Basilio said: Whats crazy is our democratic government controls our media as much as a dictatorship would. Only diffrence is our does it under thw table and a dictatorship does it openly

Precisely.

And this what frustrates many of us Muslims. Keeping in mind that the Americans were widely loved by the Muslims in general, pre-Gulf war, (1990),. Muslims used to wear what they wore... buy what they bought... eat what they produce...even act like the Americans, (not speaking of any personal experice btw) :D

But now they see them differently, matter of fact; not just the Muslims see them differently, sadly the whole world are skeptical about certain aspect of American attitude.

[Ali_Khan]

Muslims in America are a tiny minority.

[Qassami]

:start:

They are not that tiny bro.. what with 12m [?] heads... surely thats a substantial figure.

[mellowmoose]

i think that most people around the world are intelligent enough to note the difference between the US administration and its people.

btw its spelt Europe not Uerope !!

Also Europe has a substantial 'ethnic' population too !

Finally USA is unique in that it has a substantial 'red neck right wing christian' population that would happily blow half the planet up given the oppurtunity.

salaam

[Ali_Khan]

Originally posted by Basilio
I see a lot of hatred to Americans, and it makes ask this:

I am American, and a Muslim, are you against me for being American?

:banghead:

[Basilio]

Originally posted by mellowmoose
i think that most people around the world are intelligent enough to note the difference between the US administration and its people.

btw its spelt Europe not Uerope !!

Also Europe has a substantial 'ethnic' population too !

Finally USA is unique in that it has a substantial 'red neck right wing christian' population that would happily blow half the planet up given the oppurtunity.

salaam

Christian terrorist such as Timothy McBay(not sure how to spel) bombed the Oklahoma Trade Center.

[Basilio]

Originally posted by AQKhan47
Muslims in America are a tiny minority.

Nope there are several Million, as a matter of fact the American government is just now beginning to include African American, Anglo, and Hispanic Muslims that were never acknowledged as Muslims since they had no Arab Ancestry. Arab or Asian Muslims are now being more accuratly recorded as the minority of Islamic makeup in America.

Peace

[Ali_Khan]

Islamic ansestory doesnt mean anything, it is actions which count. If they are helping the Zionists murder innocent people in Iraq, then they are with the Americans. If they are innocent then they are one of us.

[Basilio]

Originally posted by AQKhan47
Islamic ansestory doesnt mean anything, it is actions which count. If they are helping the Zionists murder innocent people in Iraq, then they are with the Americans. If they are innocent then they are one of us.

Sorry, I do not understand th epoint you are making

[amana]

Originally posted by Basilio
Christian terrorist such as Timothy McBay(not sure how to spel) bombed the Oklahoma Trade Center.



The Oklahoma City Bombing
Connection to
the WTC Attack


Pentagon Report Reveals Multiple
Blasts in Oklahoma City Bombing
According to the March 20, 1996 issue of Strategic Investment newsletter, a classified Pentagon study confirms that the Oklahoma bombing was caused by more than one bomb. A classified report prepared by two independent Pentagon experts has concluded that the destruction of the federal building in Oklahoma City in April 1995 was caused by five separate bombs. The two experts reached the same conclusion for the same technical reasons. Sources close to the Pentagon study are reported to have said that Timothy McVeigh did play a role in the bombing but peripherally, as a "useful idiot."
We reported in Freedom Network News at the time that seismograph readouts at the University of Oklahoma indicated more than one blast impulse. Independent ordnance experts, including a Navy Commander, unanimously agreed that a car-bomb with low intensity fertilizer explosives could not have inflicted such extensive damage to the building and that it was highly likely that high-intensity explosives had been wired directly to the columns. Our suspicion then as now is that it was an "inside job." But by whom is the mystery. Strategic Investment reports that the multiple bombings had a Middle Eastern "signature." Others find the whole business to be extremely fishy because of the fact that no ATF or FBI agents were in their offices at the time of the blast [about 9:05 a.m.] — and that evidence pertaining to both Waco and Mena had been stored there.


— Strategic Investment, 1217 St. Paul St., Baltimore, MD 21202-4799.


From Freedom Network News (June/July 1996, pages 5-6), the newsletter of ISIL, the International Society for Individual Liberty, 1800 Market Street, San Francisco, California 94102, tel: (415) 864-0952, fax: (415) 864-7506


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See also:

Oklahoma City: Two Blasts and Strange Facts

William F. Jasper: Multiple Blasts: More Evidence


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America's Reichstag Fire
On 1997-06-13 Timothy McVeigh was sentenced to death for the bombing of the Federal Building in Oklahoma City (dead men tell no tales). The "useful idiot" has indeed turned out to be useful, effectively deflecting attention from the real perpetrators of this crime.
The Oklahoma City bombing was America's equivalent of the 1933 Reichstag Fire.


A fire destroyed the Reichstag Building on February 27, 1933. Hitler blamed the fire on the Communists. The fire symbolically destroyed the only remaining institution capable of placing reins on Hitler's grab for dictatorial power. Although the case is still somewhat disputed, the fire was very likely instigated by the Nazis and blamed on a Dutch Communist who had committed arson, Marinus van der Lubbe. There was no sign whatsoever of a revolution, but van der Lubbe gave the Nazis the excuse they needed and the pretext for new emergency measures [the Ermächtigungsgesetz, enacted on 1933-03-24]. — The First Steps Leading to the "Final Solution" [link expired]
Timothy McVeigh is America's version of Marinus van der Lubbe (who was tried by the Nazis, found guilty and executed). On 1995-04-23, only four days after the bombing, with public outrage still at its height, President Clinton signed into law the so-called Counter-Terrorism Bill.

Future historians may write:


Several bombs destroyed the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building on April 19, 1995. President Clinton blamed the bombing on domestic right-wing terrorists. The bombing destroyed the records of the 1993 massacre of the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas, and also records relating to Mena. Although the case is still somewhat disputed, the bombing was very likely instigated by a secret criminal organization parasitic upon the U.S. government and blamed on a member of a right-wing militia, Timothy McVeigh, who was known to be sympathetic to violent resistance to the federal government. There was no sign whatsoever of a revolution, but McVeigh gave the U.S. government the excuse it needed and the pretext for new emergency measures, the Counter-Terrorism Bill.
Again from The First Steps Leading to the "Final Solution:


Hitler induced a confused and frightened Hindenburg to sign a decree euphemistically called, 'For the Protection of the People and State,' suspending all of the basic rights of citizens and imposing the death sentence for arson, sabotage, resistance to the decree, and disturbances to public order. Arrests could be made on suspicion, and people could be sentenced to prison without trial or the right of counsel. The suspension was never lifted throughout the entire period of Nazi rule, and the decree of February 28th destroyed fundamental guarantees under the Weimar democracy.
This sounds a lot like the powers given to the FBI after September 11, 2001, under the "emergency anti-terrorist legislation" that was hastily enacted in October.

In April 1996 Vincent Miller wrote of the Counter Terrorism Bill of 1995:


As we warned last year in the Freedom Network News and in Jim Elwoods's "Dictatorship at Your Doorstep" pamphlet, this is a dangerous piece of legislation — the equivalent of Hitler's "Enabling Acts", in our opinion. Among other things, the act provides for secret trials, deportation of resident aliens without due process, and seizure of assets of any individual or organization that an increasingly more criminal government may arbitrarily declare "terrorist". There is no provision for appeal or return of siezed assets.

And the legislation passed in 2001 to support the War on Terrorism is more of the same, only worse.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Links:


Reichstag Fire

The Oklahoma City Bombing: America's Reichstag Fire?

Charles Key: Oklahoma City Bombing Update

McVeigh Remains Enigmatic After Death Sentence

Oklahoma City Bombing: Investigating the Investigation

Oklahoma City Bombing Grand Jury Subpoenas Six

Michael Parenti: The Terrorism Hype


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Ryder truck at Army base, April 1995


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some links previously given above have disappeared. Here are some new links:


General Benton K. Partin: Oklahoma City : Bomb Damage Analysis — An American Reichstag [link expired]

The media and the Executive branch reported that the sole source of the devastation was a single truck bomb consisting of 4,800 pounds of ammonium nitrate, transported to the location in a Ryder Truck and parked in front of the building. It is impossible that the destruction to the building could have resulted from such a bomb alone.

Thirty Oklahoma City Bombing Questions That Demand an Answer NOW!

The Oklahoma City Investigation: A Sick $89 Million Joke

Judge Grants McVeigh's Request for Execution Date [link expired]

Asked if he understood the proceedings, McVeigh said, "Yes, sir." ... At no point did he discuss details of the crime or admit his guilt.

And lots more links at The Oklahoma City Bombing


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Pat Shannan's MURDER IN THE HEARTLAND

A New Theory with Old Facts
Fed Informant Documents Treason in OKC Bombing
Cary Gagan's Chronology of Events
Who Killed Terry Yeakey?




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Did McVeigh really die?
On 2001-06-11 Timothy McVeigh was executed by lethal injection. Or at least that's what we are told. But did he actually die? The possibility has been raised that the execution was faked so as to make it appear that the "sole perpetrator" of the bombing was caught, tried, found guilty and executed — end of story.
But might McVeigh have agreed to go quietly to his "execution" (which he officially requested in December 2000) provided he was assured that he would not actually die, but just be presented in the media as having died, later to be given a new identity in some South American country, thereby allowing the U.S. government to insist that the case is closed and nothing more is to be learnt?

At least one eyewitness of the "execution" (Susan Carlson, reporter for WLS-AM Radio, Chicago) claims that McVeigh was still breathing when he was declared dead. A judge's order to have the execution video taped was overruled by another judge. And McVeigh's body was supposedly cremated soon after the alleged execution, so can't be exhumed.

For more details regarding this possibility see Oklahoma City Bombing Cover-Up.



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Connection to the World Trade Center Attack
Available evidence suggests that on 2001-09-11, the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center were also destroyed by means of explosives in a controlled demolition, not because two hijacked planes were flown into them. It is not a great leap of imagination to suppose that the people who brought down the Murrah building later applied their talents to the Twin Towers, with, of course, much more far-reaching consequences, namely, the start of World War III.

The World Trade Center Demolition and the So-Called War on Terrorism
It is interesting to note that the the company which has been contracted to cart away the rubble of the collapsed towers is the same company that carted away the rubble of the Murrah building, a company called Controlled Demolition.


Controlled Demolition Group, specializes in building demolition worldwide. They are one of a handful with the expertise to demolish a structure like the World Trade Center. ...
In the case of Oklahoma building, Controlled Demolition carted off the remains and buried them in a hole in the desert before the smoke had stopped rising from the ruins. Then the rubble was covered over, surrounded by a security fence and guarded. ...

That was an investigative fiasco — given that there is no way an ammonium nitrate-fuel oil ('ANFO') bomb could have blown away a third of the structure. Furthermore, according to retired blast expert General Ben Partin, the blast velocity of ANFO bombs is incapable of the specific damage observed in the Murrah Building. Military explosive ten times more powerful would be needed to rip concrete away and leave steel reinforcing rods exposed.

— BOOMING BUSINESS IN CONTROLLED DEMOLITION



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John Kaminski: Ghosts of Oklahoma City


The official report of the bombing committee runs 548 pages of unanswered questions.
But the motive for the crime was established by fiat moments after the blast, convenient criminal suspects were ID'd shortly afterwards, and over the many months that followed, every other lead was pushed aside because the powers that be had what they wanted, and that was that.

Now the 9/11 probe is proceeding along the same lines of planted stories, premature conclusions and stonewalled evasions.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Oklahoma City Bombing

There are many unanswered questions about the Oklahoma City Bombing, and many people are convinced that the official explanation omits many important facts.

A summary of the evidence suggesting that McVeigh did not act alone, with a brief description of anomalies and many links to other documents.


http://www.serendipity.li/more/ok_bomb.html

[amana]

Originally posted by Basilio
Sorry, I do not understand th epoint you are making


Zionism
Zionism represents itself as a political movement concerned principally with the establishment of a state in Palestine to be controlled by and for Jews. It began in the late 19th Century and attained its stated objective with the creation in 1948 of the state of Israel by the United Nations (at the insistence of the United States and without the agreement of existing Middle Eastern states). Subsequently Israel doubled the amount of territory it controlled by means of its illegal occupation of the West Bank as a result of the military aggression carried out by it in 1967 and 1973.
In its current form Zionism seeks to dominate all of Palestine and the Middle East by means of violence and the threat of violence (using weapons manufactured and purchased with billions of dollars of "aid" supplied by the United States) and to maximize its influence in world affairs and in world history, principally by means of control of the government of the U.S.A. (primarily by blackmailing its politicians), at the expense of the social wellbeing not only of the Palestinians but of the peoples of all lands.

A principal component of Zionism is racism, in the form of the belief held by Zionists that Jews constitute a race superior to all others, and in particular to those, the Palestinians, who lived on the land that the Zionists stole from them in 1948 (under the pretext of the land having been given to them by the United Nations) and subsequently.

Zionism is not a part of the Jewish religion, but rather is parasitic upon it. Most Zionists are Jews, but not all Jews are Zionists. To condemn Zionism as immoral (racist, vicious and depraved) is not to condemn Judaism.

There is also something called "Christian Zionism", whose adherents (including the followers of Jerry Falwell) totally support Israel. This psychopathological delusion sees Jewish occupation of Palestine as partly fulfilling biblical prophecy in a process leading to Armageddon and the Rapture (in which, they believe, all Christian Zionists will be taken up to heaven, leaving the rest of us to die on a scorched Earth).

Zionists are experts at propaganda, disinformation, distorting facts and claims, and outright lying. Any criticism of Zionism or of Israel is labelled as "antisemitism", where this is interpreted to mean "anti-Jewish". This is a slanderous falsehood. Criticism of Zionism is criticism of a particularly ugly political movement, not criticism of a religion or of the adherents of a religion. One may be critical of Zionism and of Zionists while at the same time being quite tolerant of, or well-disposed toward, or even an adherent of, the Jewish religion. Whether one approves of or dislikes the beliefs and practices of Judaism it remains that Jews have a right to hold those beliefs and maintain those practices. No-one, however, Jewish or non-Jewish, has a right to drive out people from their homes on land where they and their forebears have been living for centuries, to deprive people of their human rights, to cripple their society and to damage the welfare of others by a parasitic subversion of the government of another country for base political purposes, which is what Zionists have done and continue to do.

Zionists invented "the big lie". Here is an example, a statement by a self-proclaimed Zionist: "Zionism is dead. Once its goal was achieved in 1948, it went out of business." Sure. And pigs can fly.

Zionists claim that Jews have the right to possess all land between the Nile and the Euphrates because (they say) this land was given to them by some entity they call "YHWH" as claimed in the Old Testament (Genesis 15:18). But this would not be the first time that documents written by humans were used to justify land grabs. (And this "YHWH" appears, from accounts in the Old Testament, to be a particularly repulsive entity, vain, jealous, given to fits of rage and directing his followers to massacre civilian populations — an entity who, if he existed, would be quite unworthy of the devotion of anyone with a sense of justice and morality.)

Zionists also lay claim to Palestine because this was territory controlled by two Jewish mini-states, Judah and Samaria, until their destruction by the Romans in the 1st C. CE. To which may be replied: If Zionist claims to a Jewish "homeland" in Palestine, based on Jewish occupation of that area 2000 years ago, are accepted as valid then the claims of North American Indians to their former homeland (all of the United States) and the claims of Australian Aborigines to their former homeland (all of Australia) should also be accepted as valid, and those homelands returned. Not to mention the descendants of the inhabitants of countless mini-states which have risen and fallen over the course of thousands of years of human history. Jews have no more rights than anyone else.

Zionists are not content with having acquired a state of their own in Palestine, they also want this state to be for-Jews-only, thus the desire and intention to expel from Israeli-controlled territory all the indigenous inhabitants (a practice sometimes known as ethnic cleansing, a concept derived from the Nazi practice of "cleansing" areas of all Jews).


The idea of transfer had accompanied the Zionist movement from its very beginnings, first appearing in Theodore Herzl's diary. In practice, the Zionists began executing a mini-transfer from the time they began purchasing the land and evacuating the Arab tenants.... "Disappearing" the Arabs lay at the heart of the Zionist dream, and was also a necessary condition of its existence.... With few exceptions, none of the Zionists disputed the desirability of forced transfer — or its morality. — Tom Segev, One Palestine, Complete : Jews and Arabs under the British Mandate, quoted at http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/snieg_conc1.htm
The Palestinians, being Arabs, are Semites. By their open contempt for, and racist persecution of, the Palestinians the Israelis show that it is they who are the real anti-Semites, and their accusations of anti-Semitism (and the accusations of their American and European coreligionists) cast at all who criticise Jews or Israel amount to no more than blatant hypocrisy.



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When you are on the ground in Palestine, you can see Zionism physically imprinted on the landscape. Not only can you see that there are settlements, built on land confiscated from Palestinians, where Palestinians may not live. Not only can you see roads in the occupied territories, again built on land taken from Palestinians, where Palestinians may not drive. Not only can you observe that water in the occupied territories is allocated, by Israeli governmental authorities, so inequitably that Israeli settlers are allocated five times the amount per capita as are Palestinians and, in periods of drought, Palestinians stand in line for drinking water while Israeli settlements enjoy lush gardens and swimming pools. Not only can you stand and watch as Israeli bulldozers flatten Palestinian olive groves and other agricultural land, destroy Palestinian wells, and demolish Palestinian homes to make way for the separation wall that Israel is constructing across the length and breadth of the West Bank. The wall fences off Palestinians from Israelis, supposedly to provide greater security for Israelis but in fact in order to cage Palestinians, to define a border for Israel that will exclude a maximum number of Palestinians.
But, if this is not enough to demonstrate the inherent racism of Israel's occupation, you can also drive through Palestinian towns and Palestinian neighborhoods in and near Jerusalem and see what is perhaps the most cruelly racist policy in Zionism's arsenal: house demolitions, the preeminent symbol of Zionism's drive to maintain Jewish predominance. Virtually every street has a house or houses reduced to rubble, one floor pancaked onto another or simply a pile of broken concrete bulldozed into an incoherent heap. Jeff Halper, founder and head of the non-governmental Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD), an anthropologist and scholar of the occupation, has observed that Zionist and Israeli leaders going back 80 years have all conveyed what he calls "The Message" to Palestinians. The Message, Halper says, is "Submit. Only when you abandon your dreams for an independent state of your own, and accept that Palestine has become the Land of Israel, will we relent [i.e., stop attacking Palestinians]." The deeper meaning of The Message, as carried by the bulldozers so ubiquitous in targeted Palestinian neighborhoods today, is that "You [Palestinians] do not belong here. We uprooted you from your homes in 1948 and now we will uproot you from all of the Land of Israel."

— Kathleen and Bill Christison: Zionism as a Racist Ideology




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As stated above, Zionism should not be equated with Judaism. The contemptible treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli government (supported and approved of by most Israelis) is not supported by all Jews. There are some Jews who are totally opposed to Zionism and to Israel's policies in the occupied territories of the West Bank. Here are two websites which express this position:


Jews Against Zionism

Not In My Name


See also Israel Shamir's To Those Who Think All Jews Are Pro-Israel & Zionists.


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Articles on This Website
Here are various articles concerning Zionism and the pervasive and pernicious influence of Zionism on the government of the United States, an influence which has now led us into a global geopolitical situation fraught with danger for us all.

Jason Collett: What Right Do Zionist Jews Have To Palestine?

... the people known today as Jews are primarily the descendents of a Turkish tribe known as the Khazars. The Khazars have no historical connection to Palestine. They converted to Judaism between 620 and 740AD, and have no genetic connection to biblical Israel ...

Sherri Muzher: Racism: When will We Face the Facts?

More water is given to Jewish citizens than to Palestinians; jobs are more plentiful for Jewish citizens than Israeli Palestinians; Jewish citizens are not subjected to torture while in prison; only Israeli citizens and illegal Jewish settlers drive with yellow license plates, which allow them freedom to travel throughout the Holy Land; non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel; Israel's policies have involved planning regulations prohibiting Palestinian building on 40 percent of Gaza, 70 percent of the West Bank and 80 percent of East Jerusalem. While restricting Palestinian development, Israel builds housing for its people in the occupied territories.

Israel Shamir: Battle for Palestine

In the chain of 'Jew - Gentile - animal' the difference between the first two items is much bigger than the difference between the second and third, postulated Taniya, a compendium of traditional Jewish teaching. This notion sits in the subconscious levels of many Jews, good and bad alike.
While evil Jews of Sharon's kin slaughter Gentiles without slightest remorse, many good Jews object to Sharon's actions as they would object to cruel treatment of animals. Actually, on the walls of Tel Aviv houses there are more posters protesting inhuman feeding of geese than deploring mass murder of Goyiim.


Robert Fisk: I wonder why Bush doesn't let Sharon run his press office

All that he [Bush] offers to the Palestinians is a ghastly mockery of what the Palestinians are told to do by the Israelis.

John Kaminski: Heads They Win, Tails We Lose

As many observers have written recently, an anti-Semite used to mean someone who hated Jews because they were Jews. Now, the term anti-Semite is used by Jews to tar and feather anyone who disagrees with Jewish policies, influences, and effects. Complain about Israelis burying alive Palestinian residents of Jenin and Jews say you're an anti-Semite. Wonder about the preponderance of Jewish influence on the American government and you're an anti-Semite.

George Sunderland: Our Vichy Congress

Lyndon Johnson's decision to cover up the deliberate and protracted Israeli attack on the U.S.S. Liberty in June 1967 (and which resulted in 34 deaths: almost double the deaths suffered by the crew of the U.S.S. Cole) was pointedly not investigated by Congress. Instead, the surviving crew were shamefully bullied into silence by the gargoyle Johnson and his functionaries; those who did break their silence later were reviled by the lobby as delusional anti-Semites.

Jeffrey Steinberg: The 'Ignoble Liars' Behind Bush's Deadly Iraq War

For Leo Strauss and his disciples, the ignoble lie — disinformation — was the key to achieving and holding political power. And raw political power was the ultimate goal. For Strauss and the Straussians, there were no universal principles, no natural law, no virtue, no agapé, no notion of man in the living image of God. ...
Among the other Strauss disciples who are currently part of the ongoing neo-con insurgency are: John Podhoretz, editorial page editor of Murdoch's yellow tabloid, the New York Post, ... Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas; Attorney General John Ashcroft [and many others with influence on the Bush Administration].


Israel Shamir: The Shadow of Zog

The problem is, the US people have no way out of the Zionist takeover. While Neo-Cons and Right-wingers are guilty of starting World War Three, of introducing Fascist measures against the American population, of premeditated aggression against sovereign Iraq and of unrestrained support for the racist Jewish State, it would be mistake to leave the buck resting with them. ... [I]f Al Gore and Joseph Lieberman were the White House incumbents now, the US Marines would be in Baghdad nevertheless, the National Library of Iraq and Iraqi museums would still have been looted, and the olive trees of Mesecha uprooted and the flow of American cash to Israel would be continuing unabated.

A Brainwashed American Looks at CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, CBS, ABC and NBC

I already know that Jewish lives are more important than Palestinian lives. The ultimate in evil is the death of a Jewish child. My humanity is outraged.

Donald Cassidy: In Remembrance of the September 11th Dead!

The rise of the Conspiracy over the last two centuries parallels the rise of Zionism. This is not a coincidence. Early on, the Conspiracy realized that it needed a strong political agency, Zionism, and its own country where it would be free from all governmental oversight and create the murderous rogue state (Israel) that menaces the world today through Washington.

Gilad Atzmon: The Ten Most Common Mistakes of the Israeli People

Gilad Atzmon: Murdered At Daybreak

C. E. Carlson: Why Judeo-Christians Support War

Reviews of Michael Collins Piper's The Final Judgment, a book which provides evidence in support of the theory that John F. Kennedy was assassinated in a combined Mossad/CIA operation.

John Kaminski: 'Power Hour' Blocks Kaminski at Last Minute

The Zionist takeover of the collective American mind has been more than a century in the making. Through the planned deterioration of the American educational system, the production of harmful and needless medications, products and services that keep the public anesthetized and disoriented, and the endless stream of xenophobic propaganda spewed forth by media which have absolutely no interest in either the health of individuals or the morality of political issues, the United States has become a robotized killing machine, spouting pre-programmed invective that vilifies all opposed to its crimes, an out-of-control monster that sickens and kills all those who come in contact with its demonic military might, including even those misguided souls who plan the atrocities and wield the weapons.

John Kaminski: Devils from Heaven

Israel as a Terrorist State


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Articles on Other Websites
What Is Zionism?

After the First World War, Palestine became a British mandate since Turkey lost the war. Thousands of Jews started pouring into Palestine. ... [This] led to a lot of conflict and strife between Arabs and Jews.
Zionism gradually took a new meaning after the Jewish state was established, but the inhuman intentions remained the same. ...

These days Zionism is mainly involved in lobbying the great powers, and making sure that Palestinians never see the light of prosperity again.


Sam Hamod: Semitic Semantics — Semitic is a Language Group, Not a Race or Ethnic Group

... when a person from the ADL calls someone who is critical of Israel, Zionists or Zionism, an "anti-semite", this is pure nonsense. The person speaking is simply critical of Israel or Zionism.

The Electronic Intifada

Fadi Kiblawi & Will Youmans: Israel's apologists and the Martin Luther King Jr. hoax

John Kerry: A Powerful Journey, An Essential Dream
Another Zionist being set up by the power elite to occupy the Oval Office from January 20th, 2005, onwards.

Joe Vialls: Kosher Kerry Cons Christian America — Crikey!
Democrat hopeful says personal Jewish heritage a 'revelation'

Jeffrey Steinberg: Behind the Iraq Dossier Hoax: Intelligence Was Cooked in Israel

Julian Borger: The spies who pushed for war

The OSP [the Office of Special Plans] ... forged close ties to a parallel, ad hoc intelligence operation inside Ariel Sharon's office in Israel specifically to bypass Mossad and provide the Bush administration with more alarmist reports on Saddam's Iraq than Mossad was prepared to authorise. ... In 1996, he [Douglas Feith] and Richard Perle ... served as advisers to the then Likud leader, Binyamin Netanyahu. In a policy paper they wrote, entitled A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm, the two advisers said that Saddam would have to be destroyed, and Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iran would have to be overthrown or destabilised, for Israel to be truly safe.

Sam Hamod: Does Hitler's Ghost Live In Israel?

How can the Zionist Jews who run Israel not remember how Hitler brutalized them in the 1930s and 1940s? Why should they take Hitler’s methods and now use them against the Palestinians? Why is the world standing by and allowing this holocaust to take place ... ?

Israel and the U.S. Interest

The total [transferred from U.S. taxpayers to Israel] for the past five years (1993-1997) was around $6,300,000,000/year ($6.3 BILLION) or over $17 Million/DAY.

Jean Shaoul: A crude attempt to equate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism

Kevin MacDonald: Understanding Jewish Influence

The current situation in the United States is the result of an awesome deployment of Jewish power and influence. One must contemplate the fact that American Jews have managed to maintain unquestioned support for Israel over the last thirty-five years despite Israel's seizing land and engaging in a brutal occupation of the Palestinians in the occupied territories—an occupation that will most likely end with expulsion or complete subjugation, degradation, and apartheid. During this same period Jewish organizations in America have been a principal force — in my view the main force — for erecting a state dedicated to suppressing ethnic identification among Europeans, for encouraging massive multi-ethnic immigration into the U.S., and for erecting a legal system and cultural ideology that is obsessively sensitive to the complaints and interests of ethnic minorities: the culture of the Holocaust.

Articles by Edgar J. Steele: In Defense of Anti-Semitism That's Mr. Antisemite to You!
Tell a Joke, Go to Jail The Truth Shall Make You Mad


Stephen J. Sniegoski: The War on Iraq: Conceived in Israel

It is also remarkable that while in 1996 Israel was to "shape its strategic environment" by removing her enemies, the same individuals [Perle, Feith, and Wurmser] are now proposing that the United States shape the Middle East environment by removing Israel's enemies. That is to say, the United States is to serve as Israel's proxy to advance Israeli interests.

William Bowles: Has A Right-Wing Zionist Cabal Hijacked The White House?

William Hughes: Zionist Savagery at Jenin Recalled (Also here.)
Crimes that cry to heaven were committed in Jenin by the IOF [Israeli Occupation Forces]. By way of illustration, despite the desperate pleas of Ulm Jamal, a 68-year old woman, the Israeli thugs bulldozed a house, where her paralyzed son was trapped. ... The callous bulldozer driver called the mother, and others who were begging for him to stop, 'Whores!'.


The Zionist Plan for the Middle East (also here)

Mark Glenn: The Rest of the Story

The day that America discovers that the entire "war on terror" is and has been from the beginning a concerted, coordinated effort brought about by individuals whose only concern is that which benefits Israel, and that it has been waged for the purposes of facilitating murder, racism, and genocide, thus begins the day that the apocalyptic dream of Zionism comes tumbling down like the Tower of Babel, and to some, this is truly a nightmare too horrible to consider. As such, individuals such as [Daniel] Pipes et al, in the spirit of duplicity and corruption, willingly and deliberately tell only that part of the story which serves their interests.

"The attacks on New York and Washington were an Israeli-engineered attempt at a coup against the government of the United States"

Victor Ostrovsky: A Message From Hell (Also here.)

Melani McAlister: An Empire of Their Own

Winston S. Churchill: Zionism versus Bolshevism

Edward Said: Dreams and Delusions

Carol Valentine's very informative Come and Hear

The World Gentile Congress. Don't miss the Cartoons section, including R. Crumb's The Goddamn Jews

James Roger Brown: The Inevitable Demise of Israel

Grace Halsell's review of Alfred M. Lilienthal's The Zionist Connection II

Hanan Ashrawi

Jewish Groups Irked By Ashrawi's Australia Peace Prize

Israel to Strip Hanan Ashrawi of Citizenship

Bill Vann: The bombing of Syria: a new eruption of US-Israeli aggression

William A. Cook: Of Pariahs and Pre-emptive Strikes

Donald Wagner: Christian Zionists, Israel and the 'second coming'

Gary North: Fundamentalism's Bloody Homeland for Jews

Lauren A.E. Schuker: Law school professor denies he relied on another's work

A DePaul University professor [Norman Finkelstein] has charged Frankfurter Professor of Law Alan M. Dershowitz with committing plagiarism in his recent bestselling book The Case for Israel — an accusation that has set off a furious back-and-forth about what does and does not constitute plagiarism.

Norman Finkelstein: Finkelstein Proclaims 'The Glove Does Fit'

Quite simply, the book he [Dershowitz] claims to have written is a hoax: (1) substantial swatches are lifted from another notorious hoax on the Israel-Palestine conflict, (2) it is replete with egregious falsifications, and (3) the few scholarly sources actually cited are mangled beyond recognition.

William Hughes: A review of Lenni Brenner's book 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis

Rabee' Sahyoun: Why Zionism Is Racism (Also here.)


Jackie Patru's Israel

An American Death in Gaza? Who will be punished? Who will benefit?

Political prisoner Ernst Zündel

Grace Halsell: Armageddon: Zionism's Diabolical Goal

Christian Zionists, or dispensationalists, give Israel total support because they think there has to be an Israel there, a place — not for Jews, but for the battle of Armageddon, which they actually believe must occur. It's part of the required steps, they believe, that will lead to their Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ.

Zion's Christian Soldiers

Ronald Bleier: In the Beginning, There Was Terror

The effects of the dispossession of the Palestinians and other Arabs are with us to this day, in the shattered lives of the millions of people directly affected and also as a sign of the West's war against the entire Arab nation and Muslims everywhere. Arguably, the original sin of Zionism and its effects on the peoples of the Middle East were central to the motivation behind the events of 9/11, and the most important consequence of which is the ongoing "war on terrorism" that is smothering our political landscape.

Henry Makow, PhD: Mel Gibson Vs The Pharisees: Film Highlights Christian Jewish Difference

David Hirst: Pursuing the Millennium: Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel

Zionism in Bible Prophecy: Part 6

The terrorists of the 1940's were given full amnesty after establishing their nation, so instead of being brought to justice, they were able eventually to take power and keep all dissenters in line through terror and fear. The terrorists have become statesmen of the Jewish State. They have little moral ground to condemn modern Arab terrorists for doing what they themselves did in the 1940's and 1950's and have continued to do to the present day.

The First Holocaust

George Bisharat: Who Caused the Palestinian Diaspora? Origins of the Middle East Crisis

Carol Moore: Is Applying Libertarian Principles to Israel Anti-Semitic?

John Bennett: Revisionism and Censorship Down Under

Henry Makow PhD: Rothschilds Conduct 'Red Symphony'

Joe Vialls: Prince Charles Implicated in Murder of Princess Diana

It became instantly obvious to the Zionist Lobby that Dodi Al Fayed could not be controlled at all. ... If Dodi Al Fayed was allowed to continue his relationship with Princess Diana, and perhaps marry her, then ultimately his discreet influence over Prince William and Prince Harry could well undermine all of their careful work, and preparations to guide the future King of England and his heirs.

Attempts To Smear Rense.com As 'Anti-Semitic' Continue

Zionism DataPage — a huge collection of links to webpages with more info on Zionism.

Salman Abu-Sitta: Traces of poison — Israel's Dark History revealed

Israel, not Iraq, holds that distinction of being the first country in the region to use weapons of mass destruction with genocidal intent.



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Israel's Nukes
There are two terrorist states in the world which have nuclear weapons, the USA and Israel. Both are clear and present dangers to the entire planet. The greater threat is Israel, because Israel can destroy Western civilization and possibly make the entire planet uninhabitable. This is not because Israel can detonate thousands of nukes over the entire planet. Rather it is because Israel can nuke Russia. If that were to happen then Russia would launch a nuclear attack against the United States (both the U.S. and Russia are on hair-trigger nuclear alert), and the U.S. would retaliate in the same way. This is perhaps the main reason why the U.S. gives Israel everything it wants and never criticises it, except in the gentlest way possible. The only way out of this situation is either the destruction of Israel's nuclear weapons capability or the destruction of Israel itelf.

The U.S. is loud in demanding that Iran and North Korea open its nuclear sites to International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors. Why does it not demand the same of Israel?


More Evidence Mossad Killed JFK Over Israeli Nukes

Michael Collins Piper: The Mossad Role in the JFK Assassination Conspiracy

Weapons of Mass Destruction in the Middle East: Israel

Sophisticated nuclear weapons program with an estimated 100-200 weapons, which can be delivered by ballistic missiles or aircraft.
Nuclear arsenal may include thermonuclear weapons.

Strategic Israel The secret arsenal of the Jewish state

Carnegie Endowment for International Peace: Proliferation: Israel

Israel's 'Use' Of Its Nuclear Weapons Against US

Tarek Kapiel: The Deadly Arsenal of the Rogue State

Carol Moore: Israeli Nuclear Threats and Blackmail

Nuclear Weapons — Israel (Also here.)

Israel's Nuclear Weapons
Based on plausible upper and lower bounds of the operating practices at the reactor, Israel could have thus produced enough plutonium for at least 100 nuclear weapons, but probably not significantly more than 200 weapons.


Dimona Negev Nuclear Research Center — Imagery Analysis Report

Michael Collins Piper: Israeli Nuclear Policies Threaten World Peace

Worldwide nuclear holocaust all part of Mideast's mini-state's foreign policy, defense strategy.

L. A. Times: Israel Adds Fuel to Nuclear Dispute Officials confirm that the nation can now launch atomic weapons from land, sea and air.

So now Israel can lob atomic (perhaps thermonuclear) warheads on Washington, New York, Los Angeles, London, Paris, Berlin and Moscow. You think they wouldn't do it?
But the situation is far from hopeless.


Russia Ready to Vaporize the Jewish State, Part 1: And then kick America out of the Eastern Hemisphere’s oilfields

In fact, it's quite encouraging.

Russia Ready to Vaporize the Jewish State, Part 2: Vladimir Putin hammers the final nail into Israel's coffin


http://www.serendipity.li/zionism.htm

[Basilio]

I am not about to read through all this, can anyone come any simplar I rather hear from a person rather than a media source

[Ali_Khan]

What I am saying Basilo is that it is not the actions of our parents or ansestors that

[Ali_Khan]

Basilo what I am saying is that on the day of judgement people will not be judged by what their ancestors did or were, they will be judged according to their own actions and beleifs. Americans who are murdering children for oil will not be helped by the deeds of their ancestors. Rather, what they should realise is that murdering children for oil and pleasure is an act of immense evil that is hated by Allah. Otherwise they will not only face the wrath of their victims but the much greater and more tremendous wrath of Allah.

[Lateafha]

Basilio you shouldn't care about why americans are hated, because you are a muslim. All you can do is side with the truth and go against all evil even if that means your people and your country.

In akhira being an "american" is not going to protect you from the hell-fire but your Imaan will and your deeds will.

I know many americans who are my family who told me that if America attacks a muslim country that they would fight america no matter what. Because when it comes to Islam and who we are what country we're from means nothing to us.

So yes for Allahs sake I hate some of the things america did in the past and all the evil things it still continues to do today. And yes I hate your American trooops too. The ones who protect the world, the good and the fighters of evil, the so-called peace-makers. What a disgrace!

Oh and I just would like to add that I Love my american born muslims. They are Muslims so They are our brothers and sisters, and are not included to be hated in anyway.:love:

[Basilio]

Well I do care about America because it is my home, I have family who are non muslims here, I have good friends who are non Muslims, Most of our ancesters have come from bondage and are still fighting oppresion here in America by the white man. I am also a Veteran and I know Muslim brother who are serving in the armed forces. So do you hate me for being a Marine....what people seem to confuse is the diffrence in politics and military. Now that America Occupies Iraq people have beef with us, but Muslims didnt have a thing to say about Sadam and his regime murdering children. Muslims within Saddams military did not revolt and protect Muslims, why are there bodies not being burned and mutilated, why are those same Saddam militants not being targeted by Muslims. Why are the remainder of militants still murdering women and children. Muslims are doing absolutley nothing about it, yet have the nerve to complain, Many complaining Muslims are doing absolutly nothing to help, and pointing fingers arent helping anybody.

[Qassami]

:start:

:salams

I found this noteworthy piece of writing that will shed light on some of what been said here. you can read it by clicking here > Islamtoday.net (http://www.islamtoday.net/english/showme2002.cfm?cat_id=29&sub_cat_id=479)

It's a lengthy article, so I'll just quote the CONCLUSION :)

This is clearly a positive step and one that Muslims should find encouraging. If nothing else, it is demonstrative proof that there is resistance to the Bush administration's actions, and it would be unjust to paint all of American society with a single brush. The characterization of American society as homogenous and completely supportive of American policies is a common misconception, and one which this movement seeks to address.

Whilst there had been pockets of dissent in the past, the organization of efforts under a common set of objectives promises to improve the effectiveness of the anti-war movement in the United States. The signing-up of prominent intellectuals such as Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, Edward Said and others gives credibility to the movement, and the experience of the organizers in organizing anti-Vietnam War protest means that the movement has the requisite grounding in mounting successful campaigns of resistance against government. Likewise, the inclusion of artists, musicians and other figures from American popular culture will ensure that a wide audience is reached. These are all factors which may contribute to its future effectiveness.

Ultimately, the success of the movement will largely depend upon whether it is able to develop the critical mass needed to effect change on policies. That is impossible to predict at this very early stage. However, the recent revelations of government incompetence prior to September 11 have affected public perceptions of the government and may contribute positively to a growth in the anti-war movement. In addition, the increasing realization that the American public is being manipulated through a campaign of fear-mongering is also likely to increase support. If the threat that has been used to justify the war becomes seen by the American people as being non-existent or disproportionately small compared to the US response, it will lead to a reduction in popular support for the war which may convert into an increase in opposition. Finally, unless the United States is able to sustain a climate of fear from an immediate threat, then it is doubtful that the American people will continue to support the "War on Terror" over the long-term.

Muslims will be the ultimate beneficiaries of whatever success the movement achieves in fighting the government's actions domestically or with regards to its foreign policies and war against terror. As such, it is a movement that we should support in as much as what they are working for and the manner in which they are doing it, is consistent with Islam.

And Allah knows best.

More noteworthy articles regarding America > Relating to America after What Has Happened (http://www.islamtoday.net/english/showme2002.cfm?cat_id=29&sub_cat_id=542)

American Aggression on Iraq - Its Effects on the Mental Health of Our Children in the Muslim World (http://www.islamtoday.net/english/showme2002.cfm?cat_id=29&sub_cat_id=536)

How We Can Coexist (http://www.islamtoday.net/english/showme2002.cfm?cat_id=29&sub_cat_id=471)

Hope you'll find them beneficial to read!

[Andalus]

Speaking personally i don't hate anyone. I hate some peoples negative treatment of Moslems around the world and there ideas that they believe give them justification for doing so.

People who generalize and hate all this group or that, play into the hands of people.

Hating this or that doesn't yield results, or progress, which is what is important.

[Ali_Khan]

Originally posted by Basilio
Well I do care about America because it is my home, I have family who are non muslims here, I have good friends who are non Muslims, Most of our ancesters have come from bondage and are still fighting oppresion here in America by the white man. I am also a Veteran and I know Muslim brother who are serving in the armed forces. So do you hate me for being a Marine....what people seem to confuse is the diffrence in politics and military. Now that America Occupies Iraq people have beef with us, but Muslims didnt have a thing to say about Sadam and his regime murdering children. Muslims within Saddams military did not revolt and protect Muslims, why are there bodies not being burned and mutilated, why are those same Saddam militants not being targeted by Muslims. Why are the remainder of militants still murdering women and children. Muslims are doing absolutley nothing about it, yet have the nerve to complain, Many complaining Muslims are doing absolutly nothing to help, and pointing fingers arent helping anybody.

Actually there are muslims who are helping. They are liquidating your comrades in Iraq and Afghanistan everyday. And do you think there are no muslim groups who plot and plan against these dictators? They are the people your crusaders comrades call terrorists. They are the people who are holed up in Guantamo. They distribute anti-regime leaflets, they mobilise protests, they train themselves muslims in arms and have attempted many armed revolts, usually only to be quashed by US backed dictators who have better weapons and better inteligence. There has been only one success story and that was the armed revolt against the war lords in Afghanistan by the Taliban. But dont worry these groups will grow and grow untill one day they will succesfully all eliminate the dictators that your country creates. And in the process they will destroy America's grip on the muslim countries. As for your so called muslim comrades in the American army, if they are not covertly working for Islam, may Allah destroy them.

[Basilio]

Originally posted by AQKhan47
Actually there are muslims who are helping. They are liquidating your comrades in Iraq and Afghanistan everyday. And do you think there are no muslim groups who plot and plan against these dictators? They are the people your crusaders comrades call terrorists. They are the people who are holed up in Guantamo. They distribute anti-regime leaflets, they mobilise protests, they train themselves muslims in arms and have attempted many armed revolts, usually only to be quashed by US backed dictators who have better weapons and better inteligence. There has been only one success story and that was the armed revolt against the war lords in Afghanistan by the Taliban. But dont worry these groups will grow and grow untill one day they will succesfully all eliminate the dictators that your country creates. And in the process they will destroy America's grip on the muslim countries. As for your so called muslim comrades in the American army, if they are not covertly working for Islam, may Allah destroy them.


so what dictator where these Muslims groups eradicating when the killed innocent men, women and children during the 9/11 attacks, please tell which dictator was killed during that "battle" against innocents. and...

since when do Muslims judge other Muslims, you are just accepting the fate that the devil wants upon us, which is dividing us, and your statement definatly create a division in the the Ummah itself.

But that is OK hate me for I a Muslim hate me because I a American Miltary Veteran. Hate me because i am Mexican American..Hate me because I support American troops, because they have famillies like me. Hate me because I support Palestine and their quest for freedom, and hate me for I support the removal of Saddam..but most importantly please hate me for the public announcement on this forum and that is:

"I bear witness that there is no God but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhhamed is His messenger"

"I also accept the Koran as the direct words of Allah, and I accept and follow the Sunnah of the Prophet(MPUH)"

"These are the tools Allah has handed to all men of the world. And I accept this tools that Allah has given as the guidance that I must follow, and I will continue to follow 1st and for most no matter the opposition."


peace

[Ali_Khan]

<<so what dictator where these Muslims groups eradicating when the killed innocent men, women and children during the 9/11 attacks, please tell which dictator was killed during that "battle" against innocents.>>

The 911 attacks were not part of any anti-regime moevements as far as I know. If I remember the correctly, it was carried out in retaliation for your comrades murdering 500 thousand children in Iraq with B-52 bombing runs.

<<since when do Muslims judge other Muslims, you are just accepting the fate that the devil wants upon us, which is dividing us, and your statement definatly create a division in the the Ummah itself.>>

Judging? You call this judging? It is called giving advice and it is obligatery upon all muslims to forbid the evil and promote the good and that is done by giving advice or doing Jihad.

<<Hate me because I support American troops>>

That is actually a very good reason to hate you because you support child murderers who carry out crasades against muslims. But I will not waste my time hating you, rather I would advise you to follow Islam, forbid the evil and enjoin the good instead of blindly supporting childmurderers just because they have similar looking dog tags to you.

[Basilio]

Originally posted by AQKhan47
The 911 attacks were not part of any anti-regime moevements as far as I know. If I remember the correctly, it was carried out in retaliation for your comrades murdering 500 thousand children in Iraq with B-52 bombing runs.


so how come strikes werent carried out after Saddam did the same thing using biological means..I am also assuming you mean the Gulf War, because as I recall Bin Laden was in support of it during that time, as America was funding weapons and training his men, he turned on the America government after the American Government stopped supporting himm.

No one means to kill innocents and in this case like in many, American troops(not the american Government) have done their best they can considering the world doesnt fight with swords and spears anymore. I mean conventianal warfare is bombs now days, Human error and bad intelligence play a big role, and since when does two wrongs make a right, innocents may have been killed in Iraq, but since when does the Muslim lower himself to the same level of the infidel, and in return ,turn around and do the same thing in revenge, making these groups just as bad as a tyrant. No I believe real Muslims will come better than that. I believe real Muslims will face the enemy on the battle field, as they always have, as the Prophet (PBUH) has done himself.

Regardless, if you werent judgin me then you would not hate me, instead you would accept me regardless of my opinion. But i love you, and I will pray for you my brother

peace

[Ali_Khan]

so how come strikes werent carried out after Saddam did the same thing using biological means..I am also assuming you mean the Gulf War, because as I recall Bin Laden was in support of it during that time

Osama Bin Laden was never in support of Americans invading Iraq because he knew they were only there for creating mischeif and murdering children using the name of Saddam. What he lobbied in Saudi Arabia was for permission for his Mujahideen to wage war against Saddam Hussein. But the Saudis refused the offer and instead gave the contract to Americans who took full advantage of it to murder as many innocent people as they could in the name of protecting Kuwait. Thereafter, Osama declared war against the house of Saud and USA.


No one means to kill innocents and in this case like in many, American troops(not the american Government) have done their best they can considering the world doesnt fight with swords and spears anymore.

Oh yes I forgot the World (ie: Americans) fight with nuclear bombs, napalm, chemical weapons and B-52 bombing runs over people's homes. How advanced and civilised of you. Sorry but no is going to buy your American propergander. You pieces of skum have been murdering civlians from the day you landed in the Americas. Massacaring whole tribes of native Indians was your fare untill you found the destructive power of carpet bombing and then Nuclear bombs (which you feverously used as soon as u had the opportunity). You Americans are nothing but a gang of child murderers and that is what you are going to be untill you change.



Regardless, if you werent judgin me then you would not hate me, instead you would accept me regardless of my opinion. But i love you, and I will pray for you my brother

How sweet. In the real world what matters is what is in your heart and that is reflected in your actions. And supporting crusaders because they murder muslim children does not give a good impression about where your heart lies.

[Basilio]

Originally posted by AQKhan47
How advanced and civilised of you. Sorry but no is going to buy your American propergander. You pieces of skum have been murdering civlians from the day you landed in the Americas. Massacaring whole tribes of native Indians was your fare untill you found the destructive power of carpet bombing and then Nuclear bombs (which you feverously used as soon as u had the opportunity).

This is how know you are wrong because My ancestors are the NAtive Americans you speak about, and we are still fighting for our liberty here in our own country the USA, but yet you label me "You Americans" look at what you are saying to an ethnic minority..the same exact thing that white opressors have been saying to us for over 400 years, not just me but my African relatives who were also enslaved, my son my child whom you talk about and my wife who is also African..I still live in the ghetto, and for someone just to come along and say that I am wrong is wrong, I will defend my Family against anybody who dares to inflict danger or threaten my family wether Muslim or not. A Muslim should not be afraid of other Muslims, come on homie..is there anyway you can accept or understand where I am coming from...or is it your job to discredit as you continue to attempt to do so, because you have yet to comment on me as a Muslim and my beliefs and the Shahada that I have already publicly announced on this forum.

peace

[landobanned]

Japan there are slanted eyed people

Slanted eyed people? You know Basilo, I've read 4 of your posts now, and I've come to the overwhelming conclusion that your not that bright. Which gives you and Khan something in common. Ya'll will be loving each other soon enough.

ps. There called Japanese, not slanted eyed people.

[Basilio]

Originally posted by landobanned
Slanted eyed people? You know Basilo, I've read 4 of your posts now, and I've come to the overwhelming conclusion that your not that bright. Which gives you and Khan something in common. Ya'll will be loving each other soon enough.

ps. There called Japanese, not slanted eyed people.

I did call them Japanese as a matter of fact..i just couldnt think of an ethnic apropriate label..does of Mongolian descent sound better to you (now that I can think of it)..i am sure you are perfect, but then again you obviously were not able to figure out the point that I was making other wise you would have had a more "intelligent" view point to add to the conversation. Khan is bringing a good argument to defend his position , and he does it with evidence, you on the other hand have read only four of my post, and have determined I am not bright, Kid you dont even know me.

[landobanned]

First of all, I shouldn't say your not bright. It's insulting and innapropriate.
But it's obvious to me that you are ignorant, which means something completely different.

Secondly, I'm not a kid.

Thirdly, I know what Khan is all about, as I've been here a lot longer than you. Get used to the term 'child killers'.

Fourth, you didn't call them Japanese. You said 'Japan there are slanted eyed people'. And by the way, Mongolians are a completely separate ethinic group. Think Ghengis Khan, who was obviously not Japanese. Maybe you need to study an Almanac.

Fifth, I agree with your original post, but debating issues like this with Khan is futile.

You seem rather new to the Islamic religion, so let me give you some advice. Muslims( in theory ) loathe ethnic division. So you might want to drop the whole racial thing from your vernacular, or join the Nation of Islam.

[Abdul-Curim]

brother basilio , the problem with most americans and other non-muslims is that they depend a lot on western media (read american) for news.

so if we muslims present something contrary to the information you have recieved from the mainstream american media you simply dont wish to believe .

a muslim has to believe another muslim more than a nonmuslim even if he is your own father !

[nam]

Sallaam

Basillio, i agree with most of whatyou are saying. No one should be labelled orjudged based on where they live.

AQKhan47, 500 thousand Iraqi children? Now thats a lot of dead people, where did u get your figures from?

Allah HAfiz

Nam ("Dis space bar aint working" nam 07/04/03)

[Ali_Khan]

Originally posted by Basilio
This is how know you are wrong because My ancestors are the NAtive Americans you speak about, and we are still fighting for our liberty here in our own country the USA, but yet you label me "You Americans" look at what you are saying to an ethnic minority..the same exact thing that white opressors have been saying to us for over 400 years, not just me but my African relatives who were also enslaved, my son my child whom you talk about and my wife who is also African..I still live in the ghetto, and for someone just to come along and say that I am wrong is wrong, I will defend my Family against anybody who dares to inflict danger or threaten my family wether Muslim or not. A Muslim should not be afraid of other Muslims, come on homie..is there anyway you can accept or understand where I am coming from...or is it your job to discredit as you continue to attempt to do so, because you have yet to comment on me as a Muslim and my beliefs and the Shahada that I have already publicly announced on this forum.

peace

Firstly please do not call me homie, I am nobody's "homie". And if you really are native indian and muslim then you should be doubly ashamed of not only identifying yourself as American but also incredibly wearing marine dog tags as merobilia. It doesnt matter how powerful USA or UK is, kissing their butts or doing their dirty work for them is not going to get you anyone's respect. They dont even respect you, they consider you their usefull idiot who is patriotic just to fit in. Just look at how they are flinging you at Iraqis so that they can have oil. The Iraqis consequently hate you so much, they are tearing you to shreds on the street. What kind of life is that? Instead I invite you to come over to our side, we do not pay allegiance to any country group or organisation, our only alegiance is to Allah and the Koran and apostles he sent down. That is what real freedom is. Come on our side, you will love it.

[Abdul-Curim]

if saddam was wrong and no muslim org or country did anything to bring him down and america had to do it and take credit for it then , i would have to give credit to osama bin laden for 9/11 coz .....


the number of reverts ( converts to islam ) tripled from the annual 30,000/ average to more than 100 thousand per annum post 9/11, now you have given me a reason to believe that 9/11 indeed has fuelled the growth of new muslims in the USA, coz for me it is indeed a joyous moment .

and mind you this is only if indeed that dirty stinking liar george bush has any evidence againt any muslim organisation behind 9/11.

[Basilio]

Originally posted by currim
if saddam was wrong and no muslim org or country did anything to bring him down and america had to do it and take credit for it then , i would have to give credit to osama bin laden for 9/11 coz .....


the number of reverts ( converts to islam ) tripled from the annual 30,000/ average to more than 100 thousand per annum post 9/11, now you have given me a reason to believe that 9/11 indeed has fuelled the growth of new muslims in the USA, coz for me it is indeed a joyous moment .

and mind you this is only if indeed that dirty stinking liar george bush has any evidence againt any muslim organisation behind 9/11.

I can see where you coming from on this, but the Prophet(PBUH), won more hearts by his peacful actions, even during war he was peacful, nobody has ever been able to do that, and the Prophet(PBUH) is still recieving his blessings.

And Khan..check your PM box..lets squash this beef..I will respect you and not call you homie, lets live in peace...

peace

[AhmedSyed]

Basilio; Dear brother, I'd like to know why you support the US lead invasion of Iraq? (Considering that the US supported UN sanctions which consequently lead to the death of 400,000 Iraqi children)

The prime motive for this war is the oil. No doubt about it...the US is destroying Iraq and making it crippled (in order to later give it economic help and make the money flow from Iraqis to America; a good example of this is the Dawes plan that the US put on German after WWI and the US in Japan after WWII. The US's method of crippling a country and then providing resources is a clever plan because the money will flow towards American pockets, not the country that was destroyed.)

If you do support Palestine, please do realize that American occupied Iraq will go according to the whips of America and not be influenced as much by Palestine.

[AhmedSyed]

I thought you had family in California?

http://ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36696

[Details]

yanno ... theres a few things i dont like about americans too ... i cant really put it into words tho, cause everytime i do i realize i'm being dishonest in my over-generalizations. (yer lucky not to have those realizations ak) of course, there are some great examples right here on this forum even. not saying their bad ppl or anything ... just that they share those attributes that i dont take kindly to. but then again, i run into ppl from other parts of the world that have those same distasteful attributes ... all of a sudden the generalizations go out the window .... what part of the world are you from ak?

[Ali_Khan]

Originally posted by AhmedSyed
I thought you had family in California?

http://ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36696

I thought you would play that same card again. Yes I have family in America but thankfully they do not describe themselves as Americans nor are they aligned with Americans.

[Bubblefish]

Originally posted by Abdul Qadeer
Assalaam Alekum.

I ve been getting alot of flak lately for hating Americans, so I want to explain here why I dont like them.

Ali Khan

Who cares? Are you so self obsessed that you think people here really care about your inner workings?

It is not americans you hate but your own image of America. Your hatred does not serve you nor any Muslim on this planet. You cannot see what lays before your eyes, so you can also not understand the true nature of your own hatred.

There will come a day soon when any politician such as yourself will not be able to voice such things and have them hold any wieght.

[Bubblefish]

Originally posted by Details
yanno ... theres a few things i dont like about americans too ... i cant really put it into words tho, cause everytime i do i realize i'm being dishonest in my over-generalizations.ak?

Welcome to the eternal always present conflict of idea. I too find myself in complete and utter conflict with most American's point of view, yet I myeself, although not born in America,am American. (also in California) Yet I also find myself in conflict with many other ideas in the world, other than in the US.

It is the politician who wants the conflict of idea to be between and confused with us, the global citizens.

Humans are not in conflict.

Our ideas are

Humans are in harmony and synergy like all of nature and all of the universe.

[UnenlightenedOne]

I know what Ali Khan means, really, I feel the same way about ARABS :rolleyes:

[Peace]

Originally posted by Abdul Qadeer
Assalaam Alekum.

I ve been getting alot of flak lately for hating Americans, so I want to explain here why I dont like them. The fact is I just dont trust them. They are the biggest gang of liars and double faced cheats you could meet. They say one thing and do another. They talk about liberty while murdering children in Iraq under the guise of sanctions. They proclaim "freedom" and at the same sexually molest hostages in the most vile and inhuman way possible. And the abuses that they carry out they do it behind our back and they laugh at us behind our back because they are getting away with it. And they are getting away with it because they own the most expensive and established PR machine in the world which is the global media of satelites. And media that does not conform to American propergander has their offices bombed and their journalists executed by the American military. All this is received with complicit silence by the majority of Americans, their mouths only opening to shout "terrorist" or "fundamentalist" at whoever dares retaliate. That is why I dont like Americans.

Respectively,

Ali Khan

I have two sisters who are both now American citizens.

Do you dislike them too Ali?

[sfvalley]

I know this is a gross overgeneralization. But I have not met 1 honest Arab businessman in my line of work. They have the worst reputation of anyone. The one time we had a majopr conflict with one and after it was all said and done his project manager (who was african american) told me that arabs felt that lying to non muslims was ok and justified. That has stuck with me for a long time.

[Gabril]

Originally posted by kaphirgoyim
I know what Ali Khan means, really, I feel the same way about ARABS :rolleyes: [/B]
Never heard before that the offender has the right to hate his
victim. Rather vice versa. :rolleyes:

[Raven]

Originally posted by sfvalley
I know this is a gross overgeneralization. But I have not met 1 honest Arab businessman in my line of work. They have the worst reputation of anyone. The one time we had a majopr conflict with one and after it was all said and done his project manager (who was african american) told me that arabs felt that lying to non muslims was ok and justified. That has stuck with me for a long time.

I used to work in the financial crime industry. Some organized groups would commit fraud because their victims deserved to have money stolen from them.

[Mary Carol]

Originally posted by Abdul Qadeer
I ve been getting alot of flak lately for hating Americans...

I had no idea that my prepubescent sons got on anyone else's nerves so much.

What punishment would you mete out Ali_Khan?

[Gabril]

Originally posted by sfvalley
I know this is a gross overgeneralization. But I have not met 1 honest Arab businessman in my line of work. They have the worst reputation of anyone. The one time we had a majopr conflict with one and after it was all said and done his project manager (who was african american) told me that arabs felt that lying to non muslims was ok and justified. That has stuck with me for a long time.
Oh, that must have been a terrible trauma for you.
Are you now visiting a psychotherapist to cope with it ? :rotfl:

[Bubblefish]

Originally posted by sfvalley
I know this is a gross overgeneralization. .

Then why share a self proclaimed false idea? Do you think it defeat's Ali's post? Do you think this is a contest to see who hates each other and why?

Sharing a false idea believed to be true is also telling a lie.


I have been lied to by many americans. All human beings lie, all all businessmen engage in the art of gentle deception.

Americans have lied to the arabs, maybe that is why they think it is OK for them to lie to the americans.

(on a side note, telling the truth to someone who cannot see it is the same as lying to them, this is a hidden puzzle to u nderstand the nature of the deceptive mind)

[Peace]

Originally posted by sfvalley
I know this is a gross overgeneralization. But I have not met 1 honest Arab businessman in my line of work. They have the worst reputation of anyone. The one time we had a majopr conflict with one and after it was all said and done his project manager (who was african american) told me that arabs felt that lying to non muslims was ok and justified. That has stuck with me for a long time.

Yeah? Well now u r sounding like Ali Khan! I'm half Arab btw :mad:

[JiHaD_JoE]

Originally posted by Abdul Qadeer
I thought you would play that same card again. Yes I have family in America but thankfully they do not describe themselves as Americans nor are they aligned with Americans.

just cause they say they arent american doesnt make it true

[Mary Carol]

Originally posted by sfvalley
I know this is a gross overgeneralization. But I have not met 1 honest Arab businessman in my line of work. They have the worst reputation of anyone. The one time we had a majopr conflict with one and after it was all said and done his project manager (who was african american) told me that arabs felt that lying to non muslims was ok and justified. That has stuck with me for a long time.

Glad to see that you recognize the fallacy of your generalization and I hope that you do not let an isolated experience to tarnish your worldview of any man.

Unfortunately our experiences do stick with us for a long time even when we see that rationally they are false.

It may be easier to follow our gut reaction (I am guilty of this also) than to take the time to examine our own untrue beliefs and move forward to a just view of humanity.

[Ali_Khan]

Originally posted by mariam
I had no idea that my prepubescent sons got on anyone else's nerves so much.

What punishment would you mete out Ali_Khan?

mariam i have yet to understand why u think i have an ioata of interest in your "prepubescent" sons, unless you think I am an American priest of course.

[Gabril]

Originally posted by Abdul Qadeer
mariam i have yet to understand why u think i have an ioata of interest in your "prepubescent" sons, unless you think I am an American priest of course.
:rotfl:

[Mary Carol]

Originally posted by Abdul Qadeer
mariam i have yet to understand why u think i have an ioata of interest in your "prepubescent" sons, unless you think I am an American priest of course.

You are no priest.

You just consistantly reveal your childish, irrational hatred of all Americans.

Day after day after day.

Post after post after post.

What jihad would you mete out to my prepubescent American sons?

[amana]

Originally posted by sfvalley
I know this is a gross overgeneralization. But I have not met 1 honest Arab businessman in my line of work. They have the worst reputation of anyone. The one time we had a majopr conflict with one and after it was all said and done his project manager (who was african american) told me that arabs felt that lying to non muslims was ok and justified. That has stuck with me for a long time.


What a shame, that you din`t have the opportunity of meet the really Arab/Muslims business gentlmen. I sure did! Maybe Couse it takes gentless and kindess to meet and work with kind people, though.

And it looks that, you are none of them.

Well lets say the your experience is half good for you: no Arab ever stollen pensions money from millions of poor-working peaplo around the world.

No Arabs, ever cheated and screwup investors on wallstreat.

No Arabs is screwingup tax payer money and pension funds of poor americans, and other poor woorking people around the world.

You should go Googling. You will find were the really deshonest people are.

[Gabril]

Originally posted by mariam
You just consistantly reveal your childish, irrational hatred of all Americans.
What's your problem ?
I mean, the whole world hates you. (except for Israel of course):D

[Mary Carol]

Originally posted by amana
What a shame, that you din`t have the opportunity of meet the really Arab/Muslims business gentlmen. I sure did! Maybe Couse it takes gentless and kindess to meet and work with kind people, though.

And it looks that, you are none of them.

Well lets say the your experience is half good for you: no Arab ever stollen pensions money from millions of poor-working peaplo around the world.

No Arabs, ever cheated and screwup investors on wallstreat.

No Arabs is screwingup tax payer money and pension funds of poor americans, and other poor woorking people around the world.

You should go Googling. You will find were the really deshonest people are.

:up:

As a fellow American I'd love to shake your hand.

So glad to see you confirm that sfvalley should not allow a bad experience with a person to tarnish his experience with others of that creed, dogma, or nationality.

Aren't blind prejudices unworthy of any of us?

:)

[Raven]

Originally posted by mariam
Aren't blind prejudices unworthy of any of us?

Does anyone else see the irony of asking her this question?

[Mary Carol]

Originally posted by Raven
Does anyone else see the irony of asking her this question?

Time will tell.

[amana]

Originally posted by Raven
Does anyone else see the irony of asking her this question?


What is wrong with Mariam question? I found that is very true and honest question.

But, to each his own. different people interpret things in different way. :freedom:

[Ali_Khan]

Originally posted by mariam
What jihad would you mete out to my prepubescent American sons?

What a revolting question you ask. Dont you care for your sons at all that you seek someone to mete out "punishment" on them?

[joeschmoe]

The question was for you, amana. I think Raven and mariam are waiting for your answer (me too).

Ali Khan, your constant spinning makes you look silly. Does it also make you dizzy?

[amana]

Originally posted by joeschmoe
The question was for you, amana. I think Raven and mariam are waiting for your answer (me too).

Ali Khan, your constant spinning makes you look silly. Does it also make you dizzy?


I din`t ask any question. I merally posted my ideas.

The quote of Raven was from Mariam, and i posted a reply accordnly.

Now, you can ask me a question, and i will reply.

take in consideration, that i am not very argumentative, though. :)

[Mary Carol]

Originally posted by Abdul Qadeer
What a revolting question you ask. Dont you care for your sons at all that you seek someone to mete out "punishment" on them?

What does it matter to you what I care?

You have accused "Americans" of many crimes.

How would you mete punishment out, to my American sons?

[ClashCityRocker]

I dont hate Americans, I just think American tourists who travel to London and India are very annoying...

cheers!

[TheLongArm]

Originally posted by Abdul Qadeer
Assalaam Alekum.

I ve been getting alot of flak lately for hating Americans, so I want to explain here why I dont like them. The fact is I just dont trust them. They are the biggest gang of liars and double faced cheats you could meet. They say one thing and do another. They talk about liberty while murdering children in Iraq under the guise of sanctions. They proclaim "freedom" and at the same sexually molest hostages in the most vile and inhuman way possible. And the abuses that they carry out they do it behind our back and they laugh at us behind our back because they are getting away with it. And they are getting away with it because they own the most expensive and established PR machine in the world which is the global media of satelites. And media that does not conform to American propergander has their offices bombed and their journalists executed by the American military. All this is received with complicit silence by the majority of Americans, their mouths only opening to shout "terrorist" or "fundamentalist" at whoever dares retaliate. That is why I dont like Americans.

Respectively,

Ali Khan

Let me explain something to you AQ. I read the filth that you, and others like you, constantly post about Americans, but it has absolutely no chance in hell of ever bringing me to the conclusion that Muslims in general are as ignorant and demented as you are. Nothing that you or anyone else could ever say or do would ever convince me that Arabs or Muslims are any different than any other human being on the earth, American or otherwise.

In my opinion, that's what makes me an American.

[Ali_Khan]

Originally posted by mariam
How would you mete punishment out, to my American sons?

Your sons are not American untill they start aligning themselves with Americans. MalcolmX refused to be identified as an American as do many muslims in America. Being an American is a choice not a nationality. Why else do you hear Americans sometimes accusing each other of being "unAmerican" when they refuse to support state crimes?

[Abdul-Curim]

Originally posted by Abdul Qadeer
Your sons are not American untill they start aligning themselves with Americans. MalcolmX refused to be identified as an American as do many muslims in America. Being an American is a choice not a nationality. Why else do you hear Americans sometimes accusing each other of being "unAmerican" when they refuse to support state crimes?

this sounds more wiser than your 1st post of the thread , yes we just cannot generalise americans into one slot since im sure there are some americans who hate their leadership for their evil crimes in iraq , afghanistan and ofcourse israel , but their voices are seldom heard on mainstream american media .

every country has a day of reckoning , germany and italy had it at the end of world war 2 , soviet union had it in 1991 , and inshallah america will have it for sure and if americans think they are invincible then they are only living ina fools paradise .

[TheLongArm]

Originally posted by Abdul Qadeer

Being an American is a choice not a nationality. Why else do you hear Americans sometimes accusing each other of being "unAmerican"...?


Here's why.

Home of the brave

American patriotism is different from the European variety

HERMANIO BERMANIS holds up his right hand to take the oath of American citizenship. Half a million do the same every year, but this ceremony is unusual. It is being held in the Walter Reed military hospital, in the presence of two cabinet members, because Army Specialist Bermanis, who was born in Micronesia, had both legs and his left arm blown off on active service in Iraq. His right hand is all he has to hold up.

The ceremony gave expression to a powerful sentiment: American patriotism. As de Tocqueville noted long ago, “The inhabitants of the United States speak much of their love for their native country.” Seymour Martin Lipset begins his book on American exceptionalism with a remark unusual for an academic: “I write as a proud American.” In a new survey of American values by the Pew Research Centre, fully 91% of Americans say they are very patriotic.

Europeans have long been bothered by this feature of American life. De Tocqueville again: “There is nothing more annoying...than this irritable patriotism of the Americans.” But since September 11th the Europeans have become even more disturbed. They associate patriotism with militarism, intolerance and ethnic strife. No wonder they consider it an alarming quality in the world's most powerful country.

Yet European and American patriotism are different. Patriotic Europeans take pride in a nation, a tract of land or a language they are born into. You cannot become un-French. In contrast, patriotic Americans have a dual loyalty: both to their country and to the ideas it embodies. “He loved his country,” said Lincoln of Henry Clay, “partly because it was his own country, but mostly because it was a free country.” As the English writer G.K. Chesterton said in 1922, America is the only country based on a creed, enshrined in its constitution and declaration of independence. People become American by adopting the creed, regardless of their own place of birth, parentage or language. And you can become un-American—by rejecting the creed.

This dual character softens American patriotism. “My country, right or wrong” may be an American phrase (it comes from a toast by Stephen Decatur, an American naval hero), but only one American in two agrees with it, according to the Pew survey. Only two years after September 11th, fewer than half the respondents supported the statement that “We should try to get even with any country that tries to take advantage of the United States.”

However, there is one trend in American opinion that should give pause for thought. Republicans have long been slightly more likely than Democrats to say they are intensely patriotic, but the gap has widened dramatically, and is now by far the largest on record. In 2003, 71% of Republicans said they were intensely patriotic, compared with only 48% of Democrats. An even larger gap has opened up in responses to the proposition that “The best way to ensure peace is through military strength.” The number of Democrats who agreed with that sentiment slumped from 55% in 2002 to 44% this year.

The intensity gap may well reflect differing attitudes to the war in Iraq, the domestic effects of which will presumably fade with time. But the gap may also be an early indication of a more lasting split: over the passion of loyalty, and what counts as “real” patriotism.

[Lateafha]

Originally posted by mariam
How would you mete punishment out, to my American sons?

-offtopic:

[Mary Carol]

Originally posted by Abdul Qadeer
Your sons are not American untill they start aligning themselves with Americans...


Ali_Kahn.

I am an American, as are my two sons since we are citizens of the United States.

I am also a Muslim.

Myself, my children, my friends, my neighbors, and relatives are all Americans and are all human beings.

We are human.

As proof of that fact, I'd have to admit that even you, in your continued attempts at the childish denigration of an entire population...are human also.

[Abdullah al-Muhajir]

Well said, sister Meriem :up:!

[Makki]

Dear Ali Khan,

Such prejudices against anybody will ill effect the worlds view of Islam. What kind of positive effect do you think you will attain by posting such drivel? I do not like the current American government, i think it is lying, cheating and down-right dirty in its foreign policy. I do not hate Americans. In fact the few Americans i have had the pleasure to meet have been very warm, kind and honest people.

Let us, as Muslims, not fall into the same trap that the Israelis have, and paint an entire nation with the same brush.

[.: Anna :.]

Originally posted by Makki
Dear Ali Khan,

Such prejudices against anybody will ill effect the worlds view of Islam. What kind of positive effect do you think you will attain by posting such drivel? I do not like the current American government, i think it is lying, cheating and down-right dirty in its foreign policy. I do not hate Americans. In fact the few Americans i have had the pleasure to meet have been very warm, kind and honest people.

Let us, as Muslims, not fall into the same trap that the Israelis have, and paint an entire nation with the same brush. :up:

[Peace]

Americans like the English, or the Dutch, or the Japanese or Fijians, or Nigerians, or Spanish or Latvians or Italians etc... etc are just human beings - there are good and bad amongst all people. There is no superior or evil race or nation, just people all of whom are on different spiritual and intellectual levels.

Ali's hatred is a symptom of a problem. Insha-Allah I hope one day Ali will grow up... though I doubt we will have the satisfaction of seeing his reformation here on ummah.com - more likely he will slip quietly out of sight... but then another angry young hothead will just come along to fill his shoes and shout and rant in his place...

And so it will go on... and on...

Until 2 things happen.

1) The US govt. stops it's double standards and stops trying to manipulate and dominate others for it's own interests (while telling the world they are only bringing "Freedom")

2) Muslims recognise that we must look inwards at ourselves and accept our own faults and short-comings and try to understand where we have gone wrong. God will only change our condition when we change what is 'within ourselves'.

Hassan

[Raven]

Originally posted by hassanradwan
1) The US govt. stops it's double standards and stops trying to manipulate and dominate others for it's own interests (while telling the world they are only bringing "Freedom")


With all due respect, I don't think that doing that will eliminate the animosity that some people have for Americans.

Some people have so much hatred in their hearts. When they point it outward, they usually point it at the most powerful entity.

Changing foreign policy will reduce it, but not eliminate it.

[Peace]

Originally posted by Raven
With all due respect, I don't think that doing that will eliminate the animosity that some people have for Americans.

Some people have so much hatred in their hearts. When they point it outward, they usually point it at the most powerful entity.

Changing foreign policy will reduce it, but not eliminate it.

You may be right. It is certainly true that there will always be people who will cling to irrational hate no matter what.

But the vast majority of people who display hatred and anger towards America can't be dismissed as simply irrational or crazy.

US Govt. policy has ****ed a lot of people off for a long time now.

I am the first to admit that we Muslims need to take a good long hard look at ourselves - and that is something I say almost on a daily basis here.

But it would be very dishonest of me to suggest that was the 'only' problem.

I think the American people need also to take a good long hard look at themselves and the people they elect to represent them - and speak out for 'real' justice and freedom.

Hassan

[Gabril]

Originally posted by Raven
With all due respect, I don't think that doing that will eliminate the animosity that some people have for Americans.

Some people have so much hatred in their hearts. When they point it outward, they usually point it at the most powerful entity.

Changing foreign policy will reduce it, but not eliminate it.

Does it surprise you ?
After sheding litres of muslim blood ? It still surprises you ?

[Mary Carol]

Originally posted by hassanradwan
I think the American people need also to take a good long hard look at themselves and the people they elect to represent them - and speak out for 'real' justice and freedom.

Hassan

This is a message that needs to be repeated.

It was exactly what I needed to hear.

[Ali_Khan]

The fact is Americans will always vote for a president that represents their interests of murdering children.

If u look at those sickening photos of Americans in Iraq you see gleeful Americans celebrating the mass murder of children by sodomising a hostage that they have kidnapped. Surely Americans have shown that they are below the state of animals by such acts?

So will they vote for a president that promises no more murder (ie: Nader)? I dont think so. Americans are not human beings.

[Dr Khan]

The fact is Americans will always vote for a president that represents their interests of murdering children.

If u look at those sickening photos of Americans in Iraq you see gleeful Americans celebrating the mass murder of children by sodomising a hostage that they have kidnapped. Surely Americans have shown that they are below the state of animals by such acts?

So will they vote for a president that promises no more murder (ie: Nader)? I dont think so. Americans are not human beings.

[Mary Carol]

I thought Ali_Khan said to vote for Bush? :confused:

[Gazzali]

Dear Basilio,

Allah has given immense gifts to America. The most precious gift of all is the gift to make so much wealth for the country. The activeness in them to reach out to other people of the world to generate wealth. The world is a place of one people that is the human race who rules over earth for a time being. The resources of the world belong to eveyone.But because of selfishness and greed comes boundary and politics.

The Arabs cant actually sit on the oil fields and do nothin abt it. It has to be harnessed and put to good use of the world. Cooperation is a bad word in this world. It comes with trickery, plot and murder and what not. If there is one rule and one philosphy then it is simple to answer. But the truth has somehow diluted into so many ideas and philosohy, so it is very difficult to make someone to understand the significance of one world one idea. In the process consipiracy and fear is applied to get someone to sense about an objective. Its too complicated. Thats why the answer is not simple here.

What is needed is one world/one human race/one purpose-happiness for the world

Gazzali

[Peace]

Originally posted by Basilio
Why do we hate Americans

Please try to avoid blanket statements like this.

Would you like to see a thread on a non-Muslim forum called:

"Why do we hate Muslims"?

[jabaraltariq]

Assalamu alaikum brothers and sisters

I just want to remind all the brothers and sisters that we belong to one nation (ummah), the muslim nation, regardless of where we live or where our parents live.

Our alliegiance should always be with Allah and His Rasool (saw).

Are we forgetting the seerah of the prophet (pbuh)?
Many of the sahabi fought and killed their own fathers, brothers and uncles. They left their homeland for the sake of Allah. They migrated to many parts of the world to spread the beautiful deen.

Nationalism is a modern desease that must be eradicated.
We all have a natural instinct to love our homeland. But this love should not counter our love for Allah and His deen. And if it means that we must sacrifice our country, our people, our lives for the sake of Allah, then we must do so.

We did not have a choice what race, or what country we were born into, but we did have a choice whether we wanted to accept Islam or not.

And regarding hating Americans, it is like saying somebody hates Pakistanis or Bangladehis or Indians or French etc. I am somebody who originated from Bangladesh. Now if somebody told me that they hated all Bengalis, then I would assume they hated the Bengali Muslims. This is because 90% of Bangladesh is Muslim.

But in the case of India or France or USA, the majority of the population is Kuffar, so you would automatically understand that they were talking about the Kuffar of those countries, and not the Muslims.

But as muslims, we should take the middle path not be too extreme in our hatred and not be too liberal in our love for the Kuffar. We should treat each disbeliever according the way Allah has legislated for us to.

And Allah knows best
(note. I have not read all the posts on this thread)

[jabaraltariq]

////*I am American, and a Muslim, are you against me for being American?*////

Brother Basillo, I see you as a Muslim, so why should I or any Muslim hate you? You have to remember that you are a MUSLIM, fullstop. I am a MUSLIM, fullstop. But I happen to be Bengali in origin and don't live in Bangladesh. I could be Indian .
You see, Islam comes first. It doesn't matter what "my" country is. Allah has made the earth vast.

At the time of the Prophet (pbuh) their were muslims living in Makkah amongst the Kuffar. But the majority of the muslims lived in Madinah. So the muslims rejoiced when the armies of Makkah were defeated. The muslims showed hatred towards the Makkans. But it doesn't mean to say they hated the Muslims in Makkah, or they hated the "non-opposition" kuffar. But they fought against those that fought against them.

And Allah knows best. I tried my best to explain. May Allah forgive me if I have said anything incorrect.

wasalama

[ze leetle elper]

Originally posted by jabaraltariq
But as muslims, we should take the middle path not be too extreme in our hatred and not be too liberal in our love for the Kuffar. We should treat each disbeliever according the way Allah has legislated for us to.

And Allah knows best

Well said. :up:

[Makki]

I hate the American government not Americans, that is my political view. My view as a Muslim is that i love everybody even my enemies, even the worst of people have been created by Allah (swt), who are we to judge upon Allah's (swt) creations..?

I am sick and tired of people spreading a negative view of Islaam by saying "i hate this, i hate that, they should all die, they are all child murderers.... BLAH BLAH!" :freedom:

[AbuMubarak]

"Individuals have international duties which transcend the national obligations of obedience ... Therefore [individual citizens] have the duty to violate domestic laws to prevent crimes against peace and humanity from occurring.": The Nuremberg Tribunal 1945-1946.


=

" ... the United States, for generations, has sustained two parallel but opposed states of mind about military atrocities and human rights: one of U.S. benevolence, generally held by the public, and the other of ends-justify-the-means brutality sponsored by counterinsurgency specialists. Normally the specialists carry out their actions in remote locations with little notice in the national press. That allows the public to sustain its faith in a just America, while hard-nosed security and economic interests are still protected in secret. ": Robert Parry, investigative reporter and author

=

"The essence of oligarchical rule is not father-to-son inheritance, but the persistence of a certain world-view and a certain way of life ... A ruling group is a ruling group so long as it can nominate its successors... Who wields power is not important, provided that the hierarchical structure remains always the same.": George Orwell, 1984

=

"Our rulers make the news, but they do not appear in the news, not as they really are-not as a political class, a governing establishment, a body of leaders with great and pervasive powers, with deep, often dark, ambitions. In the American republic the fact of oligarchy is the most dreaded knowledge of all, and our news keeps that knowledge from us. By their subjugation of the press, the political powers in America have conferred on themselves the greatest of political blessings-Gyges' ring of invisibility. And they have left the American people more deeply baffled by their own country's politics than any people on earth. Our public realm lies steeped in twilight, and we call that twilight news." : Walter Karp

[Lateafha]

Originally posted by jabaraltariq
At the time of the Prophet (pbuh) their were muslims living in Makkah amongst the Kuffar. But the majority of the muslims lived in Madinah. So the muslims rejoiced when the armies of Makkah were defeated. The muslims showed hatred towards the Makkans. But it doesn't mean to say they hated the Muslims in Makkah, or they hated the "non-opposition" kuffar. But they fought against those that fought against them.

MashaAllah, what an eye-opener Alot of muslims should truly reflect on that seriously.

~May Allah reward you with dozens of hasanats ameen~

When it comes to our religion we know no nationality we are all muslims, and therefore we should be keen and ready to fight our enemies. Whether that even be against the man who shares the same nationality with you.

[Ali_Khan]

Our nationality is La Ih Lahah Ilalalah Muhummad Da Rasoolallah, not Pakistani, American or British.

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by hassanradwan
Please try to avoid blanket statements like this.

Would you like to see a thread on a non-Muslim forum called:

"Why do we hate Muslims"? hassan, i can understand someone saying that

just like i can understand someone saying there is no such thing as a god

doesnt mean i agree with them, but i can understand them saying it

as for the deaf, dumb, blind, they cannot see, hear or speak, nor can they return to the right way

[AbuMubarak]

we used to have real conversations before

[IamKoE]

This is a good question, and i must say i dont know the exact answer. But how about this, if i loudmouth Islam, am i considered anti-Islam or are Muslims against free speech?


I think it depends on certain statements... like if someone says, I HATE AMERICANS, then he is anti-American, and if someone says, I HATE MUSLIMS, then he is anti-muslims.

[Mercia]

Americans like the English, or the Dutch, or the Japanese or Fijians, or Nigerians, or Spanish or Latvians or Italians etc... etc are just human beings - there are good and bad amongst all people. There is no superior or evil race or nation, just people all of whom are on different spiritual and intellectual levels.

Ali's hatred is a symptom of a problem. Insha-Allah I hope one day Ali will grow up... though I doubt we will have the satisfaction of seeing his reformation here on ummah.com - more likely he will slip quietly out of sight... but then another angry young hothead will just come along to fill his shoes and shout and rant in his place...

And so it will go on... and on...

Until 2 things happen.

1) The US govt. stops it's double standards and stops trying to manipulate and dominate others for it's own interests (while telling the world they are only bringing "Freedom")

2) Muslims recognise that we must look inwards at ourselves and accept our own faults and short-comings and try to understand where we have gone wrong. God will only change our condition when we change what is 'within ourselves'.

Hassan

A sensible post at last.
Please try to remember that their are young Americans in Iraq who REALLY BELIEVE they are their to help Iraq have a brighter future, you may think they are foolish and naive? but does not Islam teach INTENT is important? Having said that their will also be some evil American soldiers who do wrong (and we all hope they get caught if they do). Their American government leaders may be duplicit and hypocritical with their foreign policy, as money is the root of all kinds of evil, but that is another matter. Unfortunately, foreign policy of every major national world superpower since the history of humanity have always acted in their self interests. It is naive to think a world power of any sort would not. And if Iran was to become the sole world superpower it would also act in the same way. Unfortunately this is just the way of the world at present (until Christ returns) as power corrupts and we all fall short of the Glory of God. The crusade mentality was totally Satanic and is utterly condemned in Revelation chapter 17 (see here - http://www.lwbc.co.uk/harlot_church.htm ), true Christians are told to convert people by being a shining light, a good example. Doing good for those that hate you, and by loving our enemies (not by violent crusades). So any one calling themselves "Christian" that are doing that, are not really true Christians at all.

Please bear that in mind when you Muslims say "Christian terrorists", as theologically their is no such thing. The New Testament is very clear about how we are to treat those that hate us. LOVE/peace/charity.

[Mercia]

American politicians think they are doing Iraq a favour (bring them democracy and freedom from Saddam Hussein) AND ALSO acting in their own self interests at the same time (they dont want Iraqs oil in the hands of Saddam Hussein). This is how they justify it to themselves and most of them really believe it whether you hate them for it or not?

[AbuMubarak]

Allah will not raise us up on the day of judgement into groups of americans, brits, or some other nonsense

we will be raised up according to our religion, and then we will be raised along with those whom we love

if you love kufr, you will be raised amongst the kuffar
if you love imaan, you will be raised amongst the believers

[FriendQuaker]

Originally posted by sfvalley
I know this is a gross overgeneralization. But I have not met 1 honest Arab businessman in my line of work. They have the worst reputation of anyone. The one time we had a majopr conflict with one and after it was all said and done his project manager (who was african american) told me that arabs felt that lying to non muslims was ok and justified. That has stuck with me for a long time.


Yeah? Well now u r sounding like Ali Khan! I'm half Arab btw :mad:


What I say is that there is an element of blindness to the fact that the NeoCon super patriots of the US and the UK who care not for their constition or faith tradition and wisdom in this war are JUST LIKE the Muslim bombers and haters and killers who pay no attention to the rules of engagement of the Quran and take joy in their hate.

I just had a thought...

What if the haters of America on this forum were actually CIA, just doing their job keeping the justification for this war going? You know, it couldn't be a more perfect propaganda tool! Kill the peace, turn up the hate...

what about it guys, you are doing a great job for the CIA are you on their payroll??

[FriendQuaker]

Allah will not raise us up on the day of judgement into groups of americans, brits, or some other nonsense

we will be raised up according to our religion, and then we will be raised along with those whom we love

if you love kufr, you will be raised amongst the kuffar
if you love imaan, you will be raised amongst the believers

Unless you are Idi Amin of course...

couldn't resist :P

[AbuMubarak]

what is your obsession with idi amin?

[FriendQuaker]

what is your obsession with idi amin?

An evil Muslim who was armed and supported by Muslims who was a butcher who killed and deported and robbed and tortured my family much as you lot complain about Bush.

I am over it, I chose another way than what you do, reconciliation rather than justifying vengence as you do.

So my obsession for today is not w Idi Amin (it took another poster Peapod I think to even remind me of the Muslim angle on this man, and Muslim accountability- my obsession is rubbing your collective noses in your own dog**** and demanding RESPECT and ACCOUNTABILITY as you do in far more shrill and hateful tones.

It's called a quiet taste of your own poison.

So, will you who denigrate western invaders and killers of Muslims, (and they are) will you be MAN ENOUGH to step up to the plate and condemn Idi Amin a Muslim protected, armed and never criticised by Muslims?

Do you have a humble apologetic bone in your arrogance? Hmmm?

The first step to reconciliation is to admit the truth of what happened.

i can predict where this will go and it has a K word attached

[AbuMubarak]

are you trying to use idi amin, saddam hussein, or any of the other butchers as an example of muslims?

by far, they are not

but when i look at heroes of american history, it is replete with butchers, rapist, murderers (general custard, christopher columbus, thomas jefferson, andrew jackson---and that is the very smallest tip of the iceberg)

so we have no problem distancing ourselves from such people, they are not on our dollar bills, we do not have holidays commemorating their accomplishments

[FriendQuaker]

are you trying to use idi amin, saddam hussein, or any of the other butchers as an example of muslims?

by far, they are not

Then don't pretend Bush is representative of Americans or that the few bad apples represent the many. You don't like it when the tables are turned do you? Why don't you stop doing that? Hmmm?

but when i look at heroes of american history, it is replete with butchers, rapist, murderers (general custard, christopher columbus, thomas jefferson, andrew jackson---and that is the very smallest tip of the iceberg)

so we have no problem distancing ourselves from such people, they are not on our dollar bills, we do not have holidays commemorating their accomplishments

Yes you do, don't you live in the USA, don't you use your dollars and take your holidays?

Why are you IN the USA Abu? It must eat you up every day... why don't you do what you obviously yearn to, and leave for a place that suits you better? Live your life in peace, seriously...

General Custard LOL thats good! Lots of yellow ooze at his last stand... that's great and would have been better for History too.

[AbuMubarak]

why does my address seem to bother everyone?

as soon as i defeat a kafir with their own points, the first thing they become concerned with is my address

unless you are going to pay my rent, then dont worry about where i reside, as long as I am on Allah's Earth, everything will be fine, sooner or later

[FriendQuaker]

why does my address seem to bother everyone?

as soon as i defeat a kafir with their own points, the first thing they become concerned with is my address

unless you are going to pay my rent, then dont worry about where i reside, as long as I am on Allah's Earth, everything will be fine, sooner or later

Defeat?:scratch:

You say We don't have these on our currency but YOU DO

You say Bush is a butcher and all Americans should pay (but not YOU)

You won't accept responsibility for Idi Amin who was just another Bush expressed differently, so once again this is not YOUR business

You criticize and take no responsibility, heck you'l even delegate a Kaafir to enrol some folks for you into your religion!:rubeyes:

Its called HYPOCRISY

[AbuMubarak]

alhamdulillah, Allah is a witness, because wallahi, talking to some people is just plain useless

[Owl-Mirror]

Would the World cry foul, if the United States simply retreated behind it's own borders
and left the rest of the world to fend for itself ?

Would the World cry foul if the United States of America simply said:
"We shall accept no more immigrants into our Nation" ?

Would it be Anti-American to stop giving all the Billions of dollars in Aid money to those Nations in need ?

Sometimes I think those who are NOT American, do not understand what it is to be an American.

Maybe the World should try doing without our nation for a generation or two ?

[AbuMubarak]

in case anyone had doubts, abu mubarak claims love of his homeland