The expansion of the universe [harun yahya]

The Expansion of the Universe - By Harun Yahya

Science “discovered” in the 20th century what the Qur'an had revelaed 1400 years ago about the expanding universe.


In 1929, in the California Mount Wilson observatory, an American astronomer by the name of Edwin Hubble made one of the greatest discoveries in the history of astronomy. While he observed the stars with a giant telescope, he found out that the light fromthem was shifted to the red end of the spectrum and that this shift was more pronounced the further a star was from the earth. This discovery had an electrifying effect in the world of science, because according to the recognised rules of physics, the spectra of light beams travelling towards the point of observation tend towards violet while the spectra of the light beams moving away from the point of observation tend towards red. During Hubble's observations, the light from stars was discovered to tend towards red. This meant that they were constantly moving away from us.

Before long, Hubble made another very important discovery: Stars and galaxies moved away not only from us, but also from one another. The only conclusion that could be derived from a universe where everything moves away from everything else is that the universe constantly 'expands'.

To better understand, the universe can be thought of as the surface of a balloon being blown up. Just as the points on the surface of a balloon move apart from each other as the balloon is inflated, so do the objects in space move apart from each other as the universe keeps expanding.

In fact, this had been theoretically discovered even earlier. Albert Einstein, who is considered the greatest scientist of the century, had concluded after the calculations he made in theoretical physics that the universe could not be static. However, he had laid his discovery to rest simply not to conflict with the widely recognised static universe model of his time. Later on, Einstein was to identify his act as 'the greatest mistake of his career'. Subsequently, it became definite by Hubble's observations that the universe expands.

What importance, then, did the fact that the universe expands have on the existence of the universe? The expansion of the universe implied that if it could travel backwards in time, the universe would prove to have originated from a single point. The calculations showed that this 'single point' that harboured all the matter of the universe should have 'zero volume' and 'infinite density'. The universe had come about by the explosion of this single point with zero volume. This great explosion that marked the beginning of the universe was named the 'Big Bang' and the theory started to be so called.

It has to be stated that 'zero volume' is a theoretical expression used for descriptive purposes. Science can define the concept of 'nothingness', which is beyond the limits of human comprehension, only by expressing it as'a point with zero volume'. In truth, 'a point with no volume' means 'nothingness'. The universe has come into being from nothingness. In other words, it was created.

The Big Bang theory showed that in the beginning all the objects in the universe were of one piece and then were parted. This fact, which was revealed by the Big Bang theory was stated in the Qur'an 14 centuries ago, when people had a very limited knowledge about the universe:

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" [Al-Anbiyaa 21:30]

As stated in the verse, everything, even the 'heavens and the earth' that were not yet created, were created with a Big Bang out of a single point, and shaped the present universe by being parted from each other.

When we compare the statements in the verse with the Big Bang theory, we see that they fully agree with each other. However, the Big Bang was introduced as a scientific theory only in the 20th century.

The expansion of the universe is one of the most important pieces of evidence that the universe was created out of nothing. Although this fact was not discovered by science until the 20th century, Allah has informed us of this reality in the Qur'an revealed 1,400 years ago:

"It is We who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." [Az-Zariyat 51:47]

Interesting.

However, there are theories that support the big bang that don't require the expansion of the universe as proof. It's also been discovered that the expansion is increasing in speed.
I've developed my own theory on this. There are 2 known time lines in the universe thus far. There is the real timeline which the big bang travels on, then there is the time that humans percieve.

In the 'real' timeline, the explosion is actually losing momentum and slowing down. In our perception is appears it is speeding up. This would mean that the timeline we travel through is slowing. Even if mankind lasts for whatever the predicted date for the end of the universe is, we will never witness it. To something viewing us from the 'real' timeline, we appear to slow down but never stop - we appear to infinatley slow down. (Imagine if you were in a car. Every second you slow down to half the previous speed. You never stop, but you are forever decelerating.)

It's really hard to explain with out drawing it out on a sketchpad or something. It's just an interesting hypothesis I came up with.

May I correct you there.

Expansion is an observed phenomena which is actually taking place.

I think what you meant was the early period of inflation which is causing a headache for cosmologists.

There is a new theory which attempts to explain the origin of the Universe by doing away with the inflationary period. However, the theory is too abstract and relies on a lot of speculative ideas on events that took place BEFORE the Big Bang.

Quote:

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Originally posted by bintmasood
The Expansion of the Universe - By Harun Yahya


Science “discovered” in the 20th century what the Qur'an had revelaed 1400 years ago about the expanding universe.

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* "Your just a tad bit behind times I would say; after all that was already told by God In the HOLY BIBLE about 3000 years ago."*

*"Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God CREATED the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without FORM, and VOID; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."*
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"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" [Al-Anbiyaa 21:30]

[/QUOTE]

* "You might be made from water; But I'm sure not." *

* "Genesis 1
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven." *

* "27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." *

* "Genesis 2
7 And the LORD God formed man of the DUST of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." *
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The expansion of the universe is one of the most important pieces of evidence that the universe was created out of nothing. Although this fact was not discovered by science until the 20th century, Allah has informed us of this reality in the Qur'an revealed 1,400 years ago:

[/QUOTE]

* "To bad the people back then didn't read God' HOLY BIBLE, I guess they just lived too far away from the Hebrews to know the truth from Scriptures in the Bible." * !!

Isaiah 42:5
Thus saith God the LORD, he that CREATED the heavens, and STRETCHED them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Isaiah 45:12
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Isaiah 48
3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.
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I suspect that from reading verse 5 : God already knew that Muhammad was going to deceive many people who at the time didn't have access to the Holy Bible, so when he started to recite scriptures from the Bible: he twisted and changed them a bit to make it look like it was from God ( Allah ); those people were convinced it was because they didn't know any better. Then to top it off he had a few friends (Companions) swear to the people that he was telling the truth; and so then the Qur'an was Birthed.
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"It is We who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." [Az-Zariyat 51:47]

[/QUOTE]
* "WOW You don't really think your that great do you? OR is that ( WE ) Muhammad and his friends?

May God open your eyes before its to late. !

Gloria....

peace,

If the bible had stated true facts about scienec, then why were people being calles blasphemers and were threatened to be slaughtered in the name of the bible when they put forward the idea that the earth and planets moved around the sun?
namely copernicus and galileo...?

This idea was CLEARLY refuted in the bible, yet we know it now to be an obvious fact.......

Gloria- the bold type gave me a headache. Although I agree with you I don't think you realised what the post was saying. The post was saying that the Quran 51:47 says that the universe is expanding, not that God created it.

Basically it is another attempt to verify the Quran with modern day science. This is always dangerous because modern science is quick to attack holy scriptures.

Does modern science say that the universe was created in 6 equal days? If not, why does the Quran say so?

The bible contains a 7 day story. 7 being a number with a lot of meaning- complete, fullness etc. So the bible describes a complete, full creation that was deemed good by God. The hebrew word for day is not limited to 24 hour days and so the creation story can be read in a very scientific way without restricting the time.

But I think that overall this thread is just another thread to try and verify the Quran with science. This is not a great line to go down because science basically states that miracles can not happen!

Edited- Bintmasood- I think you will find that is an attack on the people reading the bible, not the bible itself. It would be like attacking the Quran because I misread it. It just doesn't make sense. The bible never says that the sun goes around the earth. The verses used for this were poetry so they are true because the poet is describing what he/we see. The Quran has an interesting thing about the sun setting in muddy waters or something. There is nothing scientifically wrong in the bible.

Yours,
Shaver

The time is not absolute, also Islam agrees with that. For example the Koran mentioned that the human would go to heaven in a day which equivalent to 1000 years from the time of earth!
Simply, these six days could be millions of years according to earth time. Also the Prophet said: before the life finish the solar system will changed, at that time 1 day will equal 1 year!

My question:

In bible it was mentioned that the god created the universe in six days, then he got a rest in the 7th day. Is that means the god was tired?

Bilal- the rest is not because he was tired. My interpretation of this is that God's rest signified that the creation was at peace. The bible often talks about people entering God's rest. This 7th day signifies what all men seek, to be with God and know his rest.

The 7th day also signifies completeness and fulness. So the creation was complete, full, good, God was pleased and he was at peace with his creation.

Yours.
Shaver

Peace,

Here is the same verse again, how did you manage to ignore the first part of it?

"It is We who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." [Az-Zariyat 51:47]

Allah made everything, or god.....he is the creator of what we see as science.....u as a christian cannot deny that...so why should religion and science be separate ideas? If the religion is right, then there should be nothing that it contradicts in science....

!!!! I wonder what it was that was edited....If u call a discussion an attack, then i cannot do anything about it, I am just refuting something....something allowed in discussions...

Feel free to attack the qur'an........instead of attacking every refutation against the bible....

Peace,

Gloria,

Every living thing is larley water....a big clue....life 'evolved' from water.....as is well-known, even among the non-religios.....

We refers to allah referring to himslef.....using good english (or the queens english!) we signifies I but respectfully....

Shaver,

Please be kind enough to find that verse about the sun setting in muddy waters, it seems strange......not nice putting something down that has no backing......

Peace.

Translation: Pickthall
[al-Kahf 18:86.10] Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.

Bintmasood- can I just take back what I said about God not creating the world. I completely got muddled. I meant to say that the emphasis of the post was more on the expanding bit, less on the created bit. It came out to strong. I meant to say that your post seemed to emphasise the expanding part of the verse in relation to expansion of the universe, you were not emphasising the created bit part. That is just obvious. If there is a God, he is above the universe and created the universe. I did not mean to question whether God created the universe, of course he did and I am sorry for giving a different impression.
I hope the translation is good.

The bit about the attack- I did not mean that I found this thread "attacking" I meant that your point about the world orbiting is actually just showing how people misread the bible, not the bible itself.

Therefore it was a not an argument against the bible, it was an argument against the people reading the bible. I used the word attack in the discussion/debate sense, I have "attacked" the Quran before and was close to being banned so I now generally stick to the bible defense and inquiry. Basically because I have not read enough of the Quran to attack it properly. I am waiting for the holidays.

The reason I editied the last post is that your post came up after I had posted the original.

Yours,
Shaver

YUSUFALI: Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness."
PICKTHAL: Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.
SHAKIR: Until when he reached the place where the sun set, he found it going down into a black sea, and found by it a people. We said: O Zulqarnain! either give them a chastisement or do them a benefit.
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As I know Arabic, I think this verse means that this leader reached the last coast of the 'known' world at that time. He saw the sun disappeared behind huge sea (e.g. Atlantic Ocean or Pacific Ocean). This verse mentions a story of ancient leader, it is not talking about the creation of the world. I agree more with the last translation.

Muhammad Asad

" [And he marched westwards] till, when he came to the setting of the sun1 it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea2 and nearby he found a people [given to every kind of wrongdoing"

1
i.e. the western point of his expedition
2
Or"abundance of water".....[snip]....the setting = have a metaphor based on the common optical illusion of the suns "disappearing into the sea"..(earth is spherical :-) )


.....I thought the dited bit was something nasty the moderators had removed...!

Peace.

I was wondering if anyone here (you all seem quite knowledgeable on the subject) is aware of the potential flaws in the 'expanding universe' theory? whether constant or accelerating. I believe Sultan was implying it was fact. It is commonly accepted (I basically accept it) but still not fact.

As I said, the Universe is expanding. This is not something derived from theories. It is derived from direct observation and, as such, cannot be disputed.

But the interesting thing that was discovered very recently, is that the expansion is ACCELERATING!

I will look in to the finding in more detail, but from what I recently read, current theory suggests that dark matter beyond the universe visible to us, is attracting the galaxies towards it, and thus accelalerating.

And shaver, if you say nothing is scientifically wrong with the Bible, why have you not met my challenge by proving to me that the verses of Genesis which states that plants were created and thriving on the earth before the Sun was created is in agreement with science?

I am still waiting.

And Gloria, if you are not made from 70% water like all humans are, I would be very interested to learn about your alien composition!

I need to look in Genesis - I think the Sun was created before plants, but I'll lookk it up. - Be back later

gloria talks to jesus...it says so on her profile......wonder what he tells her :)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Tovah
I need to look in Genesis - I think the Sun was created before plants, but I'll lookk it up. - Be back later

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No, plants were created one day before the Sun. The Sun was created on the 4 th day I believe. Which leaves a strange occurance indeed, and that being on the first day was the creation of light and it's seperation from darkenss. Then you had the oceans seperating from the skys, followed on the next day of the land seperation from the sea and on that same day - the plants. On the 4th you had the stars, sun, and moon. Next day you had birds and fish. On the 6th of course here we came along with the other mammals/land animals - which doesn't look like, according to Genesis chronology at least, we were considered really any higher up on the food chain in HIS eyes.

Well anyway, that is according the Genesis and the Judean/Christian spin on the creation. Light first... sun 4th. I always thought that was interesting...

Quote:

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Originally posted by Tovah
I need to look in Genesis - I think the Sun was created before plants, but I'll lookk it up. - Be back later

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I'm Wrong again!
Plants - third day - sun and moon and planets on the next - however....... It also says ,there was night and then there was day. There was light and darkness though so that could have taken care of the palnts needs. But then again I am not a literalist when it comes to scripture - so I welcom creative interpretation.

the expanding univers is dealt with in the concept of Tzim Tzum, G-d wothdrawal in order to make room for creation. It's quite complicated and every tim eI ponder it I get a bit disoriented.

is that like ain, ain soph, and ain soph urh?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Tovah


I'm Wrong again!
Plants - third day - sun and moon and planets on the next - however....... It also says ,there was night and then there was day. There was light and darkness though so that could have taken care of the palnts needs. But then again I am not a literalist when it comes to scripture - so I welcom creative interpretation.

the expanding univers is dealt with in the concept of Tzim Tzum, G-d wothdrawal in order to make room for creation. It's quite complicated and every tim eI ponder it I get a bit disoriented.

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Absolutely! Ain Soph Or
I can't bellieve my spelling above - must have been all that "pondering'!

The everything and the nothing

thats cool...so our teachings are similar...i think we do spell it my way though...but not sure....maybe just pronouce it that way.... :)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Tovah
Absolutely! Ain Soph Or
I can't bellieve my spelling above - must have been all that "pondering'!

The everything and the nothing

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"Or" means "light" but not literally light if you know what I mean.
I didn't practice the practical side, if you are talking about what I am thinking about.

i was taught ain=nothing, ain soph=nothing in extension, ain soph uhr=limitless nothing in extension

pretty sure thats right...to lazy to look it up :)

Quote:

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Originally posted by Tovah
"Or" means "light" but not literally light if you know what I mean.
I didn't practice the practical side, if you are talking about what I am thinking about.

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Quote:

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Originally posted by Sultan

And Gloria, if you are not made from 70% water like all humans are, I would be very interested to learn about your alien composition!

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Sultan;
I never said that I didn't have 60% or 70% of water in me; as I also have blood, and many organs, What I am saying is God did NOT form me from water.
First Of All; I believe the Bible without a doubt, and when God said to make us in his Image; I believe he was talking about a Spiritually body as he has right now;

Genesis 1:
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

But as a human body; He formed us out of the Dust of the ground, NOT water; he just put water in us as he did blood.

Genesis 2:
7 And the LORD God Formed Man of the Dust of the Ground, and BREATHED into his nostrils the breath of LIFE; and man became a LIVING SOUL.

Now at this point God just Breathed our spirit into us.

Genesis 3:
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till Thou Return unto the Ground; for OUT of it Wast Thou Taken: for Dust Thou Art, and unto Dust Shalt THOU RETURN.

I think science is good; I find it pretty interesting at times even though I really have very little knowledge of it as that is not my main interest; But when science gets past their theorizing and comes up with proven facts; that is when I take notice.
Gloria...

gloria i see from your profile you talk to jesus :) can you tell us what he tells you?

Quote:

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Originally posted by Horus
gloria i see from your profile you talk to jesus :) can you tell us what he tells you?

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Oh Horus; If you would only believe in the Son of God; He would talk to you too.
All one has to do is read scriptures in the Old and New testaments of the Holy Bible, and then you would start learning how Jesus can talk to you, through his word: the Bible. I could say alot more; But why? you just want to belittle me and other people because we're not like you. However if you really are serious about wanting to know you can e-mail me; But either way I'll be praying that God takes the Hate out of your Heart for what ever reason its there. Gloria.....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shaver
[B]Gloria- The post was saying that the Quran 51:47 says that the universe is expanding, not that God created it.
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Shaver,
I guess I was a bit tired last night and did get off the subject but I did understand what the post was saying; and these scriptures prove that the Bible fore told us about the Heavens expanding or as scripture puts it *Stretched.*

Isaiah 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and S T R E T C H E D them out; he that spread forth the earth,

Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have S T R E T C H E D out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

I just wanted to prove that the Bible foretold it about 3000 years ago, So Muhammad could have taken it from our scriptures, thats all. Gloria...

Scientifically,

There were huge star called the sun (before 4 billion of years) then around 50000 space objects (moons, planets, astroids.......) separated from the sun and started to orbit in this sequence: objects with small mass orbits around objects with larger mass.


The universe was created before 17 billion years. The stars have different ages as human, the internal reaction inside the sun determines its age: for example the reactions started from small atoms (e.g H and He) then it changed to larger one. It is suppose that the carbonic stars are the oldest.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Tovah


I'm Wrong again!
Plants - third day - sun and moon and planets on the next - however....... It also says ,there was night and then there was day. There was light and darkness though so that could have taken care of the palnts needs. But then again I am not a literalist when it comes to scripture - so I welcom creative interpretation.

the expanding univers is dealt with in the concept of Tzim Tzum, G-d wothdrawal in order to make room for creation. It's quite complicated and every tim eI ponder it I get a bit disoriented.

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Horus and Tovah; are you both well versed with the Kaballah?

Sultan; the 'expanding universe' is a theory, all you need to do is think about it for a moment. how long does the light from the edge of the universe take to get to an observer? knowing that, the apparent observation of redshift is extremely ancient, you would actually be observing something that happened a long long long (20xlong) time ago. Now, the redshift, relies on a datum (standard frequency) in the case of this theory, a quasar was used. this theory relies on more than just one assumption. not just an assumption of quasar characteristics, but also of space characteristics nearer the edge of the visible universe (what if space alters the frequency of light on its way to the observer?). In the case of the accelerating/expanding universe theory, it is based on the comparison of quantified red-shifts, assuming a constant frequency for the quasar.

Most people don't do thought experiments the way ol Albert did. The expanding universe (or even a shrinking universe) fit his theory of relativity. It is also the most common cosmological theory. It is not, however, the only one. I think it was bintmasood that posted earlier an analogy concering an inflating balloon. This is an awesome thought experiment.

I certainly would not consider myself "well versed" in Kabbalah.
I have studied with various people and Rabbis over a period of several years, but as you know, the information is somewhat limited when it comes to working with Orthodox as I am a woman. According to the "rules" I am not permitted to study Kabbalah. I'll explain more about the reasons for my involvement if you won't be bored. Actually, when I first stared reading about it in earnist, I was also reading a book about quantum physics. I was amazed at the similarities!

Horus knows about the Anglicized version made fashionable early in the 20th century - the one associated with magick and practical use. We have had many disageements about this in the past. I'll let him speak for himself though.

Thanks Tovah;

I myself am partially acquainted with the Kabbalah, but am not jewish. It has truely broadened my mind and has given me a much greater appreciation of the world and people around me and of course for God. I was under the impression that many rabbis in america have opened up the kabbalah to all, men, women, non-jews.

Yes they have, and obviously you have had good teachers. It's the Fundamentalist who still keep it closed. Your intention in studying this body of knowledge was pure - therefore you have enriched yourself by it.

Ok since i know a lot about this thing i tell the entire story.


First there was the big bang what created the universe, at first the universe was very hot about a billion degrees. Well once it cooled down a bit about a million years later. Then the first particles formed and later atoms were formed out of them.
The atoms were mostly hydrogen. Actually about 90% of the matter in universe is hydrogen.
Then in time in about a few billion years or so the first stars and galaxies formed. The stars make heat and light by burning hydrogen to helium in its core. In our suns core the temperature is about 15 million degrees. But our sun is very small actually, there are stars that are thousands of times larger then our sun.
Well as for the stars and all they just keep borning and burning, until they are out of fuel(hydrogen) and then theyll either blow up with a great supernova or collapse into a black hole that has extra massive gravity or into a neutron star usually happens to stars abot 2 to 3 times larger then the sun. When a star turns into a neutron star it becomes very small, about 10-20 kilometers in diameter. But since its atomes consist only of neutrons nothing else they are extra heavy so actually a neutron star that size may have a mass 10 times larger then that of the sun. As for the black hole its also a collapsed star that doesnt burn and is so dark but has mass and big gravity actually gravity is so big that even light cant escape, but you can see the black hole thanks to the friction that is bright and comes when the black hole is sucking up the space material into it.
As for the nova, when the planet novas its well what else can i say but BOOM. When the star has novad then it in some cases also formes a black hole or it may form a new smaller star. Our sun was formed in the same way. A larger star navad and our sun and the planets were created from it.

Ok as for the expanding universe.
Yes the univers is expanding and at the same time going faster and faster. Well there aint much else to say except that if the universe continiues to expand then it will in time become really dark, meaning is that all the stars will burn out and itll be a dark dead sea of black holes or burned out stars, forever expanding farther and farther away from each other.
The other option is that if the universe has enough mass then it will stop expanding and it will come together again, to make another big bang. But at the current the universe does NOT have enough mass.
Of course there is also the Dark Matter thing what means that there is invisible matter and that there is alot of it in the universe, well actually if it exists then its about 90 % of the total matter making the other 10% the one that we can see meaning that 9% out of that 10% is hydrogen.
If this is the case and Dark Matter does exist then it of course means that there is enough mass and the universe will slow down and will come back to make another big bang and start the thing all over once again.

As for black holes there are two types of black holes ones are small ones that are made out of collapsed stars, the other are supergiant black holes there is actually one in the centre of every galaxy it makes all the stars spin arount it like planets spin around star. Only thing is that those blackholes are about 100 million times larger the our sun. So guess how great the gravity inside them is. Actually gravity that large could probably crush a planet to the same size as a single grain of sand. Although the gravity of those black holes IS not known.

By the way guess wheres the fastest wind in our solar system ?
The answer is Neptune, on Neptune the winds reach about 2000 km/h.

Well this is it hope you liked my astronomical lecture.

P.S. if you want to know more then just ask me.

Detailz. I am aware of the ballon analogy. But red-shift was first observed in nearby galaxie clusters outside our own local cluster before Quasars were discovered.

What you are saying is that Space itself is expanding which is causing the wavelengths of light to stretch towards the red-end of the spectrum. This I already know, it called expansion.


As I said. It is not a theory. It is an observed FACT!

Quote:

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Originally posted by Detailz
Horus and Tovah; are you both well versed with the Kaballah?

Sultan; the 'expanding universe' is a theory, all you need to do is think about it for a moment. how long does the light from the edge of the universe take to get to an observer? knowing that, the apparent observation of redshift is extremely ancient, you would actually be observing something that happened a long long long (20xlong) time ago. Now, the redshift, relies on a datum (standard frequency) in the case of this theory, a quasar was used. this theory relies on more than just one assumption. not just an assumption of quasar characteristics, but also of space characteristics nearer the edge of the visible universe (what if space alters the frequency of light on its way to the observer?). In the case of the accelerating/expanding universe theory, it is based on the comparison of quantified red-shifts, assuming a constant frequency for the quasar.

Most people don't do thought experiments the way ol Albert did. The expanding universe (or even a shrinking universe) fit his theory of relativity. It is also the most common cosmological theory. It is not, however, the only one. I think it was bintmasood that posted earlier an analogy concering an inflating balloon. This is an awesome thought experiment.

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i've noticed the concepts of theories and facts get mixed up alot on here. heres an example why these things are theories. if the universe is expanding from a point source, ie the big bang, why is everything being observed apparently moving away from us. are we at the source of the expansion? consider what would be observed if we were on the periphery of the initial big bang shockwave

if you were a particle within an explosion that occurs in a vacuum, would you see all the other particles moving away from you? or would you see some particles (further away from the point source) moving away slower, and some particles (closer to the point source) moving away faster, and some particles virtually parallel? (obviously this expample can't relate to an expanding and accelerating universe)

so, for you to observe, every single thing in the universe moving away from you, we come up with the inflation analogy. this better explains the observed phenomenon. but how does it relate to a singular big bang? its hard to imagine that from a point source, all matter can be made to move away in this inflationary manner. there would have to be not only multiple, but countless points where tremendous energies are entered into the universe.

the 'observed expansion' of space time depends on two measurements.
1)red-shifted light and 2) illuminosity.

some of the causes of red-shift:
1) relative motion (doppler effect)
2) relativistic time dilation.
3) the result of a photon losing energy as it climbs out of a gravitational field

illuminosity is determined based on what is called 'stellar theory' a certain amount of calculation and extrapulation is needed.

so already we are basing this on another theory. in analogy, anytime you use calculated data to calculate more data, you are limited by the accuracy of the least accurate calculation.

Sultan, the problem with the observed facts ... they are snapshots of reality (if you will) The theory is commonly accepted as so far it does not contradict with any known 'facts'. and by the way, how many times have you been shown snapshots of events and later found the events were misrepresented by those same snapshots?

Some comments

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Originally posted by Detailz
i've noticed the concepts of theories and facts get mixed up alot on here. heres an example why these things are theories. if the universe is expanding from a point source, ie the big bang, why is everything being observed apparently moving away from us. are we at the source of the expansion? consider what would be observed if we were on the periphery of the initial big bang shockwave



Actually, no matter where you are in the Universe, the expansion in the same. Thus if you were in some other part of the Cosmos, you would observe the same effect of galaxy clusters receding away from you.

if you were a particle within an explosion that occurs in a vacuum, would you see all the other particles moving away from you? or would you see some particles (further away from the point source) moving away slower, and some particles (closer to the point source) moving away faster, and some particles virtually parallel? (obviously this expample can't relate to an expanding and accelerating universe)

so, for you to observe, every single thing in the universe moving away from you, we come up with the inflation analogy. this better explains the observed phenomenon. but how does it relate to a singular big bang? its hard to imagine that from a point source, all matter can be made to move away in this inflationary manner. there would have to be not only multiple, but countless points where tremendous energies are entered into the universe.

Its mind boggling, I do not have enough knowledge to answer that. The only thing I can find, is that there appears to be no centre of expansion in the Universe. Think about the surface of the balloon inflating (forget the interior of the balloon). If you can imagine the surface of the balloon inflating, then where is the centre? There isn't one. The applies in cosmology. The reason why we see no centre-is because we cannot think in enough dimensions to visualise it!


the 'observed expansion' of space time depends on two measurements.
1)red-shifted light and 2) illuminosity.

I think you mean Luminosity here.


some of the causes of red-shift:
1) relative motion (doppler effect)

True
2) relativistic time dilation.

Can you explain this more clealy? Light travels at a constant light speed in a vacuum everywhere. Therefore I don't see how this effect comes into it-except near a black hole.

3) the result of a photon losing energy as it climbs out of a gravitational field

I think this is the same as (2) above.

illuminosity is determined based on what is called 'stellar theory' a certain amount of calculation and extrapulation is needed.

Stellar theory? No I think you have this wrong. Speed of a galaxy cluster is determined by taking the tenth most luminous galaxy in the cluster (by convention). And using this result to measure the DISTANCE of the galaxy from our own.


so already we are basing this on another theory. in analogy, anytime you use calculated data to calculate more data, you are limited by the accuracy of the least accurate calculation.

Sultan, the problem with the observed facts ... they are snapshots of reality (if you will) The theory is commonly accepted as so far it does not contradict with any known 'facts'. and by the way, how many times have you been shown snapshots of events and later found the events were misrepresented by those same snapshots?

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The main problem lies with the Hubble Constant, if I understand what you are getting at.

some clarifications.

relativistic time dilation: simplified, it means, time slows down when you move. the faster you move, the slower time is.

photons climbing out of a gravity well expend a great deal of energy and in doing so change frequency.

stellar theory: has to do with the composition of stars and the processes they go thru. via this theory and chemical spectral analysis a calculation is done to determine the distance. this works great but the one problem with the theory is it doesnt account for all of the helium and deuterium in the universe. so even the the theory seems to work in calculating distance, it has flaws. This explains why there are more than one calculated value for the Hubble constant.

my point in all of this is only the seperation of theory from fact.

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Its mind boggling

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you got that right brother!

In point (3), the effect should be the same from a neary cluster as a distane one (assuming the same mass). This is not the case!

Also, we are neglecting the background microwave radiation-another peice of evidence predicted by thermodynamics-and later discovered in the sixties.

Also, about the centre of expansion. If you take the inflating balloon analogy, imagine the surface of the balloon to be the Universe. Where is the centre of the expansion? There isn't one!
The same applies to the Universe, but we cannot visualise because we cannot think in higher dimensions.

I know a Professor in Astrophysics from the Palestinian who living in Israel who converted from Christianity to Islam. He became the only Muslim in his town (Christian town near Nazareth). He was the best student in the Hebrew University. During his lecture about astrophysics, an atheist (former was Muslim) Professor started to discuss with him to show that science do not support religion while this Professor was defending about Islam!