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Dear Moslem friends,
I know that Islam recognises Moses, Jesus and others as prophets, but does it recognise any books of the Christian or Jewish bibles as Revelation? In other words are there any books before or after the Qur'an that are considered to be Revelation?
Thank you
Hello Charles,Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Islam recognises the original Torah & Injeel.
If I recall correctly Catholics Church rejects the Book of Revelation. Also Arab Christians who were Christians before Europeans also don't acknowledge the Book of Revelation. The only Christian cult that believe in Book of Revelation is Protestant (manily Southren Bapist) who came to existance in 15th century and so does their Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Just FYI Islam does not give any status to Christianity and does not recognize the Bible at all. The past revealed books are recognized and believe in Islam and by Muslims such as "Tawrat, Injil and Zabur." But please don't mistake them with the Bible or the Books Jews and Christians have today.
I just found this -Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaolin's-Finest
<o =""></o>Quote:
Prophet Jesus was literate but did not write or dictate the messages he received from God. After he had left t his world many people wrote about his life and teachings, which are known as Gospels. Over one hundred gospels were written. The author of one of the Gospels was the Apostle Barnabas<o =""></o>
Jesus conveyed orally to the people the Bible that Allah (God) had originally revealed to him. His disciples, too, propagated it among the people by the spoken words in such a manner that they presented an admixture of their Prophet's life-story and the revealed verses of the Bible. None of this material was put into writing during the lifetime of Jesus (peace be upon him) or even in the period following him.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/com...arn_injeel.htm
If Jesus never wrote the Injeel himself, was there ever a pure uncorrupted version of it? Is there a version of the Injeel available today which Islam says is the true uncorrupted Injeel or has this been lost? When God revealed messages to Jesus, did he use an angel such as Gabriel?
Thank you
To answer your first question, no, the torah, injeel, etc have all been corrupted since the original form was lost and the scriptures have been re-worded many times and new versus and entire books added and removed time and time again, therefore these books cannot be used as an authentic source to gain divide knowledge.
Injil was never documented, it was rather a suppliment or addendum to Tawrat, and not a Code of life like Tawrat. Injil was gone with Isa Ibn Maryam (AS). Whereas the Tawrat was already destroyted completely with the destruction of 1st temple.
Dear Bubble BusterQuote:
Originally Posted by Bubble-Buster
When you say that Injil was never documented, do you mean that it was never written down in its true form? The quote I mentioned above says it was never written down in the lifetime of Isa Ibn Maryam (AS). My question is therefore was the pure Injil written after the lifetime of Jesus (AS) and then lost or was the pure Injil never written down?
I understand that the injeel etc in its present form is corrupted so my question is about the injeel in its original form - did the Injil ever exist as a written book in an uncorrupted form? I suppose that God intended the revelations given to Mohammed (AS) to be written down for the benefit of others, so did God intend the same for other prophets such as Jesus (AS)? If God did intend Jesus (AS) to put the revelations into writing then clearly there is a problem because Jesus (AS) never did this in his lifetime, and once you start leaving it to other people that is where errors start creeping in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irfan_GHB
NoQuote:
Originally Posted by Charles
NoQuote:
Originally Posted by Charles
OK thanks. Here is a quote from the website I mentioned above.
Does God always use an angel such as Gabriel to reveal his messages or if not, how else does a prophet receive messages?Quote:
Prophet Jesus was literate but did not write or dictate the messages he received from God.
Can anyone please answer my question above? Here is another one - on how many separate occasions (approximately) did the angel Gabriel visit Mohammed (AS), and who arranged the messages into suras?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Thank you
Means of RevelationQuote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Wahy in the sense of 'revelation' is guidance from God for His creation, brought by the Prophets, who received the word from God through one of the means mentioned in the following Qur'anic verse:
'It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by sending of a messenger to reveal with God's permission what God wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise' (42: 51).
Means of revelation are:
- Inspiration, e.g. in a dream (see 37: 102, where it is related that Ibrahim (Abraham) receives guidance in a vision, while asleep, to sacrifice his son).
- Speech hidden away (see 27: 8, where it is related that God spoke to Musa (Moses) from the fire).
- Words (speech) sent through a special messenger from God (see 2:97, where it is related that God sent the Angel Gabriel as the messenger to Muhammad (peace be upon him) to reveal His message).
Dear Moshyman,Quote:
Originally Posted by moshyman
Thanks for your reply. Are there different levels of revelation, for example, would revelation throghh the Angel Gabriel be superior to that received in a dream? It seems to me that there is a danger that some people would confuse what is just a regular dream with revelation from God. Does revelation in a dream only apply to someone who is a Prophet, not just anybody? Anyway I think that Mohammed (PBUH) was the final prophet, so does that mean that there has been no more Revelation (in any form) since Mohammed (PBUH)?
Thanks for your comment Charles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Revelation is a very delicate matter in regards to what happened after Mohammed (PBUH). We have to accept that the Quran is the final word of Allah to man and that it shall remain preserved in its original state until he removes it from the earth prior to the day of Judgement. All forms of revelation given to the Prophet (PBUH) are equal as they all consitute the Quran and are from Allah. Revelation is only given to a Prophet which is what makes them a Prophet. There has been no more definitive revelation from Allah since the Prophet and we do not expect any. We must live our lives by the Quran and sunnah and not any other revelation as that may lead us to transgression (an example being the Qadianis who believe that a messiah came in the late 19th Century.)
Hope this helps you Charles
Good Luck with your search.
Ps. Charles, you say you believe that Muhammad (PBUH) is the final prophet which means you have established the Shahadah...
La ilaha ilalaahu Muhammadur Rasoolullah
There is no God but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger
Testimony in one God and belief of his final prophet make you a muslim, Congratulations!
Dear Moshyman,Quote:
Originally Posted by moshyman
Thanks for your reply, very helpful :) I kind of assumed that all the Quran came via the angel Gabriel, but do you mean that some of it came from other means such as dreams? Also I know that the first time that the angel came to Mohammed (PBUH) was in the month later called Ramadan in c 610, but I don't think that the Quran was revealed in one night, so did Gabriel continue to visit Mohammed (PBUH) until his death in 632, and if so roughly how many separate occasions would this be? Five, a hundred, a thousand?
Sorry I meant 'I think Islam says that Mohammed (PBUH) was the final prophet'. I am still exploring :)Quote:
Ps. Charles, you say you believe that Muhammad (PBUH) is the final prophet which means you have established the Shahadah...
Testimony in one God and belief of his final prophet make you a muslim, Congratulations!
As far as I know, the angel Gabriel was the only means whereby the Prophet (saws) would recieve revelation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Yes, Gabriel continued to visit the Prophet with revelation until the final years of his life. I don't think there is a record of how many times he was visited. Your guess is as good as mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Dear Lugman,Quote:
Originally Posted by *Luqman*
Thanks for your reply. Would anyone else like to add to Lugman's comments here - Moshyman what happened to you? :) OK my next question is when and by whom were the revelations of Mohammed (PBUH) arranged into suras?
Hey Charles,Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
I had to leave yesterday and haven't had a chance to come back.
Surahs were revealed to Mohammed (PBUH) either as a whole or in parts but he knew what consituted a surah. Surahs were not pieced together by anyone else but still in their divine structure. So therefore you could say that Allah is the one who arranged it into surahs.
Hope it helps and I seek forgiveness from Allah for anything that I may have said which is wrong.
you can find all such answers here better than any other site on internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Preservation of Glorious Qur’aan & Sunnah
Is the Qur'an Miraculous?<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
As-salaam alaikum,
I am back :). One thing I haven't understood yet is what happened when the angel Gabriel visited the Prophet. I think the angel says 'recite' and then Mohammed (PBUH) speaks. So the words come from the mouth of Mohammed (PBUH) not Gabriel, and so Gabriel doesn't seem to do much. Is it right to say that Allah is speaking through Mohammed (PBUH)? What is the point of Gabriel being there when he doesn't seem to do much?
Thanx
Hello Charles;
There is a hadith which answers your question in the specific case of the revelation of the first Surah (Alaq or Iqraa):Quote:
One thing I haven't understood yet is what happened when the angel Gabriel visited the Prophet. I think the angel says 'recite' and then Mohammed (PBUH) speaks. So the words come from the mouth of Mohammed (PBUH) not Gabriel, and so Gabriel doesn't seem to do much. Is it right to say that Allah is speaking through Mohammed (PBUH)? What is the point of Gabriel being there when he doesn't seem to do much?
Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her) reported that:
"...One day when he (prophet Muhammad[peace and blessings be upon him]) was in the Cave of Hira, Revelation came down to him unexpectedly and the Angel said, to him: "Read". After this Aishah (May Allah be pleased with her) reports the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) himself, to the effect, "I said: I cannot read! Thereupon the Angel took me and pressed me until I could bear it no more. Then he left me and said: Read. I said: I cannot read! He pressed me a second time until I could bear it no more. Then he left me and said: Read. I again said: I cannot read! He pressed me for the third time until I could bear it no more. Then he left me and said: "Read in the name of your Lord Who created" till he reached "what he knew not"."
So Gabriel (pbuh) recited the first Surah and the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) had to repeat after him.
Allah almighty knows best.
Dear muslim11,Quote:
Originally Posted by muslim11
Thanks for your reply. I am a bit confused by the word 'read' here -
Does this mean that the Revelation came in the form of a pre-written text?Quote:
Revelation came down to him unexpectedly and the Angel said, to him: "Read"...[Mohammmed, PBUH] said: I cannot read!
Can anyone please answer my question?
Thanx
nice going charles, where this idea of prewritten text is coming from? no one said anything to that effect, so why are you putting words in other people's mouth?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
the arabic word used in the Ayah is "iqra" that is translated by some English translators as "read" whereas in fact, it means: recite.
so the translation for the 96:1 Iqra biismi rabbika allathee khalaqa will be as under.
Read! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists),
OR
Recite! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists),
read as a verb also also means or apply to/for:
follow
memorize
check any good dictionary and thesaurus please.
It comes from the meaning of the Engish word 'read' - that was what my question was about.Quote:
Originally Posted by This is me
Please tell my any dictonary or thesaurus which defnes 'read' as 'follow' or 'memorise' without a written text. Dictionary.com gives 16 defnitions of 'read' and this is none of them. It seems to me that "iqra" should not be translated as 'read' because this will only cause confusion and misunderstanding for the English speaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by This is me
Does anyone have a reference for the hadith mentioned here by Muslim11?
Thanx
here is american heritage dictionary (about word read)Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Quote:
read
Quote:
(r¶d) v. read (rµd), read·ing, reads. --tr. 1. To examine and grasp the meaning of (written or printed characters, words, or sentences). 2. To utter or render aloud (written or printed material): She read her poems to the students. 3. To have the ability to examine and grasp the meaning of (written or printed material in a given language or notation): reads Chinese; reads music. 4.a. To examine and grasp the meaning of (language in a form other than written or printed characters, words, or sentences): reading Braille; reading sign language. b. To examine and grasp the meaning of (a graphic representation): reading a map. 5.a. To discern and interpret the nature or significance of through close examination or sensitive observation: The tracker read the trail for signs of game. b. To discern or anticipate through examination or observation; descry: "I can read abandonment in a broken door or shattered window" (William H. Gass). 6. To determine the intent or mood of: I can read your mind like a book. He's a hard person to read. 7.a. To attribute a certain interpretation or meaning to: She read a different meaning into what he had said. b. To consider (something written or printed) as having a particular meaning or significance: I read the novel as a parable. 8. To foretell or predict (the future). 9. To receive or comprehend (a radio message, for example): I read you loud and clear. 10. To study or make a study of: She read history as an undergraduate. 11. To learn or get knowledge of from something written or printed: He read that interest rates would continue to rise. 12. To proofread. 13. To have or use as a preferred reading in a particular passage: For change read charge. 14. To indicate, register, or show: The dial reads 32°. 15. Computer Science. To obtain information from a storage medium, such as a magnetic disk. --intr. 1. To examine and grasp the meaning of printed or written characters, as of words or music. 2. To speak aloud the words that one is reading: He reads to his children every night. 3. To learn by reading: We read about the storm in the paper today. 4. To study. 5. To have a particular wording: Recite the poem exactly as it reads. 6. To contain a specific meaning: As the law reads, the defendant is guilty. 7. To indicate, register, or show a measurement or figure: How does your new watch read? 8. To have a specified character or quality for the reader: His poems read well. --read n. Informal. 1. Something that is read: "The book is a page-turner as well as a very satisfying read" (Frank Conroy). --read (rµd) adj. Informed by reading; learned: He was only sparsely read in fields outside his profession. --phrasal verbs.read out. To read aloud: Please read out the names on the list. read up. To study or learn by reading: Read up on the places you plan to visit before you travel. --idioms.read a lecture or read a lesson. To issue a reprimand: Mother read us a lecture after the principal telephoned her. read between the lines. To perceive or detect an obscure or unexpressed meaning: learned to read between the lines of corporate annual reports to discern areas of fiscal weakness. read out of. To expel by proclamation from a social, political, or other group: He was read out of the secretariat after the embarrassing incident. [Middle English reden, from Old English rÆdan, to advise. See ar- below.]
<DIR><DIR>Read (r¶d), George. 1733-1798. American Revolutionary leader, politician, and jurist. Delaware's delegate to the Constitutional Convention (1787), he championed the rights of small states and later served as a U.S. senator (1789-1793).
Read (r¶d), Sir Herbert. 1893-1968. British writer known for his imagistic poetry and works of literary and art criticism.
———————————————————— ar-. Important derivatives are: arm1, arm2, army, alarm, disarm, harmony, art1, artist, inert, article, aristocracy, order, ordinary, ornate, adorn, rate1, ratio, reason, read, hatred, riddle2, rite, arithmetic, rhyme.
ar-. Also ar…-. To fit together. I. Basic form *ar…-. 1. Suffixed form *ar(…)-mo-. a.ARM1, from Old English earm, arm, from Germanic *armaz; b.ARM2, (ARMADA), ARMADILLO, ARMATURE, ARMOIRE, ARMY; ALARM, DISARM, from Latin arma, tools, arms; c.ARMILLARY SPHERE, from Latin armus, upper arm. 2. Suffixed form *ar(…)-smo-. HARMONY, from Greek harmos, joint, shoulder. 3. Suffixed form *ar(…)-ti-. a.ART1, ARTISAN, ARTIST; INERT, (INERTIA), from Latin ars (stem art-), art, skill, craft; b. further suffixed form *ar(…)-ti-o-. ARTIODACTYL, from Greek artios, fitting, even. 4. Suffixed form *ar(…)-tu-. ARTICLE, from Latin artus, joint. 5. Suffixed form *ar(…)-to-. COARCTATE, from Latin artus, tight. 6. Suffixed form *ar(…)-dhro-. ARTHRO-; ANARTHROUS, DIARTHROSIS, ENARTHROSIS, SYNARTHROSIS, from Greek arthron, joint. 7. Suffixed (superlative) form *ar(…)-isto-. ARISTOCRACY, from Greek aristos, best. II. Possibly suffixed variant form (or separate root) *½r-dh-. 1.ORDAIN, ORDER, ORDINAL, ORDINANCE, ORDINARY, ORDINATE, ORDO;
</DIR>
american heritage thesaurus
Quote:
1. (v.) To perceive and recognize the meaning of:
• comprehend
• understand
• absorb
• apprehend
• catch
• digest
• discern
• fathom
• figure out (colloquial)
• follow
• get (colloquial)
• get the drift
• grasp
• see
• take in
• catch on (colloquial)
• compass
• know
• get the picture
• make out
• miss the point (antonym)
• misunderstand (antonym)
2. (v.) To understand usually in a particular way:
• construe
• conclude
• deduce
• determine
• figure out (colloquial)
• gather
• infer
• interpret
• put two and two together
• see
• surmise
• take
3. (v.) To study hard, especially when pressed for time:
• cram (colloquial)
• memorize
• bone up on (colloquial)
• burn the midnight oil (colloquial)
• get up on (US, colloquial)
• grind (colloquial)
• grind away
• hit the books (colloquial)
• work at learning
• mug up on
• overwork
• slave
• swot (British, slang)
</DIR>you should also know the translations rules beside the following:
Parenthesis and Morons!
Islaamic Shariah rules of elucidation and interpretation!<O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
Dear This is Me,Quote:
Originally Posted by This is me
I really don't see how it helps you. My point is this - the normal meaning of the English word 'read' implies a written text as in
1. To examine and grasp the meaning of (written or printed characters, words, or sentences). 2. To utter or render aloud (written or printed material): She read her poems to the students. 3. To have the ability to examine and grasp the meaning of (written or printed material....)
To use the word 'read' and expect an English speaker to interpret it as 'repeat after me' is bizarre. The fact that the original Arabic has different connotations is to miss the point entirely - ie the point of translation is to convey the meaning to the English speaker who does not speak Arabic and who therefore relies on the English translation.
The examples from the thesaurus are all irrelevant - the thesaurus gives associated or related words. Again the point is this - what is the normal meaning of the English word 'read'. Does it mean 'memorise'? No it doesn't. The whole point of translation is to be accurate - choosing the wrong words causes misunderstanding and is bad translation.
Is anyone able to answer this question please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
Thanx
my point is that you have been deliberately dancing around that islam and quran has nothing to do with english. the word in question is "iqra", i can be careless fot anyone's confusion about "read" or denial. you can think what you want, i know that you don't need help to learn. you need to take your complain to the translators, not to us muslims.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
All I have been saying is that the word 'read' is a bad translation - this is a clearly a complaint against the translators and not against Muslims. If you now agree with me that it is a bad translation then I don't know what we are arguing about :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by This is me
Charles
In my opinion "iqra" means "recite" or "read" depending on the context. In Aramaic and Hebrew the word is more in the sense of read.
For the Quran I believe that "recite" is the best translation. It fits better with its oratory style.
This is me was wondering about a pre-written text. Hasn't he ever heard of the Mother of the Book ?
In the story by Aisha "iqra" translated as "recite" doesn't fit. Muhammad couldn't read but he could repeat what he heard. So there's a little translation problem here.
Please explain for This is Me and me what the Mother of the Book is.Quote:
Originally Posted by mansio
What do you mean it doesn't 'fit'? I don't really understand the story by Aisha. If Mohammed says 'I cannot read' doesn't this suggest there was a text which the angel was asking him to read? If there is no written text, it doesn't make sense for him to say 'I cannot read'. Not everyone is able to read - reading is a learned skill, but anyone who can speak can 'repeat after me', so why why would Mohammed say 'I can't repeat'?Quote:
In the story by Aisha "iqra" translated as "recite" doesn't fit. Muhammad couldn't read but he could repeat what he heard. So there's a little translation problem here.
Hello Charles
Both of us agree that in Aisha's story the Angel couldn't have said "recite" because Muhammad would have been able to repeat after him.
The only logical translation of "iqra" in that story is "read" because the Prophet couldn't read.
The solution of that problem would be that the Angel actually showed a "pre-written" text of the Quran to Muhammad.
This text exists in Heaven according to the Quran, it's called the "Mother of the Book".
Hello Mansio,Quote:
Originally Posted by mansio
Ok so is it believed that the angel showed Mohammed a text on this occasion, on every occasion that he appeared, or is that we just don't know what happened when the angel appeared to Mohammed? By the way my original question about the word 'read' was about whether there was a text involved when the angel appeared to Mohammed. If there was a text then of course it makes sense to use the English word 'read'.
Sahih BukhariQuote:
Originally Posted by Charles
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/001.sbt.html#001.001.003<O:p</O:p
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/060.sbt.html#006.060.448<O:p</O:p
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/060.sbt.html#006.060.478<O:p</O:p
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/087.sbt.html#009.087.111<O:p</O:p
Sahih Muslim
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/001.smt.html#001.0301<O:p</O:p
Hope this helps.
Dear all,
I can't remember if I've asked this already but does one surah correspond to one visit by the angel Gabriel and therefore there were 114 visits? If not, who arranged the revelations into surahs?
Can't remember if I have asked this before but did anyone ever witness the angel Gabriel speaking to Mohammed (P)? I know there is the hadith about one time Gabriel appeared among Mohammed's companion but did they did not recognise him, but did anyone other than Mohammed (P) ever witness and recognise a visit by Gabriel?