Muslims jumping on the Creationist Bandwagon

[AhmedSyed]

Why are so many Muslims jumping on to the Creationist bandwagon without good reason or evidence.

Its getting a bit annoying with so many Muslims just out right smashing the evolutionary theory as if it were nothing but fiction. And yet they bring up no empirical knowledge to show that evolution is a false theory.

It reminds me of the Cates case where the Tennesse teacher was put on trial for teaching the theory of evolution. And all of the sudden it causes an uproar by the Bible bashing people of the state. They come in and accuse him of "sinning", pretty funny--and yet they have no evidence to prove it false.

We often forget that science is what has contributed to so much in our society, and that if we just turn our heads from this, we will be denying ourselfs a better education and future.

So please tell me why you do not believe in evolution and bring in some empirical knowledge to dismantle the theory.

[Sultan]

I'm with you there, akhi.

While the majority of our brothers and sisters allow themselves to be misquided by pseudoscience nonsence, so long will we remain the underclass in this World.

There was a time, during the peak of islamic civilization, when Astronomy was taught alongside the Quran in the madrasas.

Since Science stopped being taught in the religious madrasas, islamic civilization declined.

It's time EACH and EVERY individual started to think for themselves and consider evidences instead of allowing ignorants to think for them!

And let's not forget that a muslim scientist, during the peak of islamic civilisation, described natural selection in his writings long before Darwin came on the scene!

[suspiro]

Totally right, Ahmed.

In fundamentalist Christianity, creationism and evolution denial seems to happen when power-hungry religious leaders try to gain absolute control over their followers by forcing them to deny a key part of the scientific consensus. If their followers swallow this, then they will continue to be easily led where the leader wants them to go.

It's about megalomania rather than science.

[Andalus]

I agree with sultan. But lets think of this from a diffrent direction. How many of the secular people actually understand evolution, micro/macro etc. How many of them have spent time reading books about it and studied it and come to their own conclusions?

Very few I would say. Isn't this a form of blind faith? Blind faith in science rather than religon.

[Sultan]

Originally posted by Andalus
I agree with sultan. But lets think of this from a diffrent direction. How many of the secular people actually understand evolution, micro/macro etc. How many of them have spent time reading books about it and studied it and come to their own conclusions?

Very few I would say. Isn't this a form of blind faith? Blind faith in science rather than religon.

How many deniers of evolution actually know Darwin's four postulates of Natural Selection which form the bedrock of evolution?

One thing I notice is that creationists avoid reference to them altogether because they know they cannot disprove them!

They cannot disprove them because the processes they describe have been observed in nature time and time again!

[AbuMubarak]

we have discussed this

evolution is faulty from the start, you cant create life from dead things

nothing mutates into anything better, mutation is always worse

the "half-developed" animals which darwin himself said were needed to prove his theory have never been found

and lastly, Allah says He created adam whole, not from a monkey

[Mahdi]

One thing is for sure, and that is that Darwin was wrong saying that we are from apes.

Subhannallah

[Sultan]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
we have discussed this

evolution is faulty from the start, you cant create life from dead things

That is another gross misconception about evolution.

Evolution is not about creating life from dead things.

It describes the origin of species, not the origin of life itself.

Scientists do not yet know the mechanism of the origin of life itself.

Whether it was from primordial soup, or from spores carried by a comet, only Allah(swt) knows best.

[AbuMubarak]

who can look at the beehive, the ant hill, the birth of a baby, and say to themselves, this is all just chance

because thats the essence of evolution, that these things all exist because of some atoms and electricity and a whole lot of chance got together and put together this wonderful universe that we live in

and whats basically behind this whole evolution thing is that it is man's attempt to disprove that Allah exists

i am very suprised that a muslim even started this thread

[Sultan]

Originally posted by Mahdi
One thing is for sure, and that is that Darwin was wrong saying that we are from apes.

Subhannallah

Actually, Darwin never made such a claim.

Instead, he claimed that Humans and Apes branched from a common ancestor. Thus one group became apes, another group became humans.

Thus humans never had an ape ancestor.

[AbuMubarak]

and who, praytell, is this common ancestor?

the suspense is killing me

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by Sultan
That is another gross misconception about evolution.

Evolution is not about creating life from dead things.

It describes the origin of species, not the origin of life itself.

Scientists do not yet know the mechanism of the origin of life itself.

Whether it was from primordial soup, or from spores carried by a comet, only Allah(swt) knows best.

sultan, where are you getting these fairy tales?

if according to evolutionists, creationists are wrong, then where did life start? it had to start to mutate, and also according to evolutionists, this was all done by environmental factors, not by the plan and will of Allah, the glorious and most high

i feel like this is the night of the living dead and ahmad is gobbling up the muslims with this empirical knowledge stuff

[AbuMubarak]

primordial soup?

i hope you mean the nitfah

[Mahdi]

How can the humans have an ape to ancestor when Allah created Adam and Eva????

Did Allah not create Adam from clay and Eva from Adams rip???

Subhannalllah

[Sultan]

If you equate me with a scientist who does not recognise Allah(swt), them I am insulted.

I believe that Allah(swt) guided evolution at every step.

Is it because we are too proud to accept our lowly origins that we dismiss what the evidence points to?

The Quran does not describe the process or mechanism of the origin of life. Nor does it describe the exact process by which Adam and Eve were created. It mentions nothing other than the fact that Allah(swt) created them. No mention on the mechanism of creation is present.

Allah(swt) gave us a brain to investigate the Universe around us.

And it's about time we wake up and use it.

[AbuMubarak]

the eyeball

one of the most complex items of creation

it came from evolution? meaning from this primordal soup, an eyeball developed?

and you call creationists living in a fantasy?

as someone said, you would have a better chance of a tornado ripping thru a junkyard and when its finished, brand new mercedes, than the impossible chance that all of creation or even the human hand developed by happenstance

[Sultan]

Obviously, you ignored my previous post.

[AbuMubarak]

sultan

i dont understand why a muslim would even entertain the idea of evolution

one, there is no daleel behind such statement

two, it came from a man who himself didnt fully believe it was correct, just a theory

three, this whole concept has now been taught as truth throughout the world, and creationists are looked at as the loonies

four, when Allah intends a thing, He says, BE and IT IS

[AbuMubarak]

and lastly, its being purported as evidence that Allah doesnt exist

[Sultan]

If the theory of evolution is nonsense, then give yourself a chance to be the first person to succesfully refute the Four Postulates of Darwin:

1...More young are produced each generation than can survive to reproduce. This is generally observed in species; many of the offspring born to any generation die before reproduction.

2...Individuals in a population vary in their characteristics. This is also generally observed in species; individuals are not identical to one another.

3...The differences among individuals are based on genetic differences. We know the genetic basis for many traits in natural populations and often have observed that the differences among individuals are present because of genetic differences.

4...Individuals with some characteristics survive and reproduce better (have higher fitness) than do individuals with other characteristics. This has now been observed in hundreds of populations.

If you can refute these facts (which have been observed in nature), then you have succeeded in demolishing evolution.

If you cannot, then your case against evolution is a poor one.

[AbuMubarak]

i dont even undertstand them, much less refute them

dna alone refutes darwin, you cant "evolve" dna, you either got it or you dont

[Sultan]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
i dont even undertstand them, much less refute them

dna alone refutes darwin, you cant "evolve" dna, you either got it or you dont

Well, if you can't understand evolution, then you are not in a position to refute it either.



If anyone can refute the Four postulates of Darwin, I will cease to support evolution.

So why do anti-evolutionists avoid trying to so?

They could get nominated for the Nobel Prize if they did!

Now isn't that an incentive?

[AhmedSyed]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
who can look at the beehive, the ant hill, the birth of a baby, and say to themselves, this is all just chance

because thats the essence of evolution, that these things all exist because of some atoms and electricity and a whole lot of chance got together and put together this wonderful universe that we live in

and whats basically behind this whole evolution thing is that it is man's attempt to disprove that Allah exists

i am very suprised that a muslim even started this thread

Ahki, I have great respect for you, but now you are saying that I said that this world came about by chance!

I never said so! I believe whole heartedly in Allah. Evolution is not proving how Allah doesn't exist, astugfirallah. Its explaining how the animal and plant kingdoms have evolved to be.

Secondly, evolution's origins lie in the molecules.

Wherever you find water--you usually find life. And if you have hydorgen and oxygen at the right amount--vallah--life (in some cases)

Allah works in ways you and I do not understand. When Allah says "be" and it is--have you ever thought about igneous rock! It takes millions of years to go throught its cycle!

So what about us? Did we come about in a split second?

Please ponder Ahki.

[AhmedSyed]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
sultan, where are you getting these fairy tales?

if according to evolutionists, creationists are wrong, then where did life start? it had to start to mutate, and also according to evolutionists, this was all done by environmental factors, not by the plan and will of Allah, the glorious and most high

i feel like this is the night of the living dead and ahmad is gobbling up the muslims with this empirical knowledge stuff

Ahki, I want you to imagine that you are in a science class, and you need to write a report to your professor.

Unless you do not give COLD, HARD, CONCRETE Evidence--you'll end up looking like a fool.

You forget that empirical knowledge made the Muslim empire into such a wonderful place. Maths, Science, Chemistry and whatnot--you can't just say "it was willed" (im sure it was but you need to give the explanation)

Empirical knowledge is crucial to proving this theory wrong. I have so far seen little of this going on.

[AhmedSyed]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
the eyeball

one of the most complex items of creation

it came from evolution? meaning from this primordal soup, an eyeball developed?

and you call creationists living in a fantasy?

as someone said, you would have a better chance of a tornado ripping thru a junkyard and when its finished, brand new mercedes, than the impossible chance that all of creation or even the human hand developed by happenstance

Igneous Rock.

Where did it come from?

Sedementary Rock.

Where were its origins?

(They both have cycles that the earth uses to balance itself.)

So where did the hurricane come from? Did it just pop out of no where?

(it come from deep in the atlantic)

Where did the tsunami come from?

(deep in the warm waters of the South Pacific)

Please show me how it just popped out.

We can't really prove that Allah exists (this is left to faith)

Subhallah, AND I AM A MUSLIM--AND AS A MUSLIM IT IS MY HONOR TO THINK BECAUSE ALLAH HAS GIVEN ME THIS.

[BubbleGum]

Personally, whenever these threads come up, I first avoid discussion of evolution.

Better to start with the issue of how old the universe is. That polarizes the issue pretty well. Creationists invariably believe the Earth is about 4000 - 10,000 years old. But the evidence that the Universe is millions of years old is obvious to any educated person.

I suppose there may be a few ppl who don't fit the above. They would agree that the Universe is in fact billions of years old, but they would believe that god made humans as described in the books, ie. dirt. But I have never heard someone express this belief.

~Bub

Sultan, Didn't know you were a 'guided evolutionist'. Personally I do think we arose by 'chance'. But it really isn't 'chance' when you do the math. 10^10 stars in each galaxy. 10^11 galaxies in the observable universe. 10^-100 is the size of the observable universe compared to the whole universe. 1.4x10^10 years to let all that to evolve.

Chances are intelligent beings like us would come in to being in this universe. In fact, chances are it has happend in other other galaxies many times.

~DoubleBub

[Muslimah56]

Originally posted by AhmedSyed
Why are so many Muslims jumping on to the Creationist bandwagon without good reason or evidence. the state. They come in and accuse him of "sinning", pretty funny--and yet they have no evidence to prove it false.


Its getting a bit annoying with so many Muslims just out right smashing the evolutionary theory as if it were nothing but fiction. And yet they bring up no empirical knowledge to show that evolution is a false theory.


So please tell me why you do not believe in evolution and
bring in some empirical knowledge to dismantle the theory.

as salam alykom
La hawala wala qowata ila billah, brother u r soooo confused.
read Quran. Sobhan Allah. u need to read Quran a lot

I never said so! I believe whole heartedly in Allah. Evolution is not proving how Allah doesn't exist, astugfirallah. Its explaining how the animal and plant kingdoms have evolved to be.
That is why I said read Quran, Allah said in Quran He Created Adam in whole, if other wise, Allah would have stated so.
I am sure u do believe in Allah, and thus Quran as His word, So just read Quran. specially Suratu Baqarah.
If u can not understand it, then read again and again and ask Allah for close guidance

[Muslimah56]

as salam alykom again AhmedSyed
If science tell you that we die and that is it, we dont resurrect, we simply vanish, that our end is our death. would u believe the science and repsect it as well???

[Huja Usman]

Originally posted by Sultan
Well, if you can't understand evolution, then you are not in a position to refute it either.



If anyone can refute the Four postulates of Darwin, I will cease to support evolution.

So why do anti-evolutionists avoid trying to so?

They could get nominated for the Nobel Prize if they did!

Now isn't that an incentive?

selamunalaykum sultan and to all of you, I miss this forum allready, subhanallah .

I found this post for you sultan that i have made about evultion

it is very frank and refuted evolution, The whole thjeory is stupid really and is impossible, THE WHOLE THEORY IS BASED ON CHANCE CHANCE CHANCE!
First let start with the living cell, a living cell is very vey sophisticated like the human being, The evolutionists say that the first living cell came to existence by chance and by a great chemical soup! They are saying, If you mix water,carbonoxid oxygyn and all these things that a living organism has then it will become a living cell! Allahu Ekbar! This is impossible really, Can i get a Human by boiling some water and mixing the ingridents a human exist of? Nonsense!


evolutionists say also that reptiles evolved o birds, Birds has wings, Resptiles has skin and it is cold blooded, How can a reptile evolve to a bird? Does the reptileevovle by thinking "Hey I want to fly"? This is impossible, The reptile has genes, and these genes do not change,

Now Some evolutionists would scream "MUTATIONS!, Well Mutaions is when something goes wrong with the genes, Mutations is when some qulatities of a living organism ( the DNA) is lost, But mutations Does not add new qualaties, example, If a reptile gets a mutation some it's allready existing genes goes wrong or gets lost, But it does not add a new QUALATY, and Birds has wings, and wings are a new qualaty, And by the dont forget Chance, The evolutionists try to give there views that mutations happen becouse detirmination, This is wrong, Mutations happen by Chance! Now Think, what is the chance of a reptile getting a wing ( the diffirence between a reptile skin and birds is very very big)

Here is a nice story that happend to me, I discussed with my chemestery teacher, and we discussed about evolutionen, I did not have much knowlidge about it, But after I read www.hyahya.org I refuted him, bit by bit infront of the lecture! Allahu Ekbar, He became silent, (By the way that teacher gave me bad grades, after despite I was good.)

[Muslimah56]

as salam alykom once more Ahmed
let us put the Quran aside
dont u think that Allah is more than capable to create man kind as man kind. Why would He need to create an ape or anything else so as to evlove into man kind??

[Consider]

There is a hadeeth that says that Allaah created Adam in His image - and one opinion of this verse is that He created him as he was, that is, in the form of a man etc.

And we know that from other hadeeth too...

So the bit about darwins theory of evolution where it discusses that man originated from apes - that is rubbish.

Now, maybe what people are getting confused with, is his theory of evolution and his other theory - what was it? natural selection? [whatever] which is different.

That natural selection thing is just common sense - animals who arent suited to the new environment just die out - those that are more suited - continue to live & develop.

& Brother Huja brings up another point - the point that something more complex cant originate from something less complex...

There are so many more issues...

But Brother Ahmed - how can you say that belief in Allaah is just based on faith?

What else is the Universe except a sign and proof from Allaah?

What else is the Qur'an except the same?

[kvakva]

Originally posted by Mahdi
One thing is for sure, and that is that Darwin was wrong saying that we are from apes.

Subhannallah

Absolutely incorrect - human UNQUESTIONABLY evolved from primates. Human and chimpanzee, guerilla DNA is 98% identrical.

[Consider]

Humans and pigs are very similar too.

[kvakva]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
sultan, where are you getting these fairy tales?

if according to evolutionists, creationists are wrong, then where did life start? it had to start to mutate, and also according to evolutionists, this was all done by environmental factors, not by the plan and will of Allah, the glorious and most high

i feel like this is the night of the living dead and ahmad is gobbling up the muslims with this empirical knowledge stuff

___________________________________________
sultan, where are you getting these fairy tales?
___________________________________________

It's so amusing to hear a religious person call science a fairy tale when exactly the opposite is true - religion (the whole "belief in one creator of the univers" is the biggest fairy tale in the history of mankind.) Anyway, this is MY opinion and I am open for (credible) input.

[Zaman]

I think this is the first time EVER i have come across Muslims who take Evolution instead of Creation.

Evolution theory is utterly and completely refuted here .... http://www.harunyahya.com

I understand Sultans point that maybe Allah (swt) evolved Men from Apes as a show of his mercy, intelligence and power but im afraid the theory of evolution just doesnt hold up. There is more SOLID evidence to support Creation then Evolution right now (and No we dont just blindly follow).

If anyone can prove to me that we are descended from Apes (Solid Proof) i will get this some serious consideration. Until then... Glory be to Allah. Lord of the Worlds.

[Zaman]

1...More young are produced each generation than can survive to reproduce. This is generally observed in species; many of the offspring born to any generation die before reproduction.


This is not entirely true... Look at Humans. Even certain species especially insects generally all survive to reproduce.



2...Individuals in a population vary in their characteristics. This is also generally observed in species; individuals are not identical to one another.


Well you dont say! you call this a theory? It is simple observation! Ghandi could have told you this!!! (but even then
what about Twins? They have many similar characteristics) and all the animals of a particular species have the same basic characteristics/instincts.


3...The differences among individuals are based on genetic differences. We know the genetic basis for many traits in natural populations and often have observed that the differences among individuals are present because of genetic differences.


This is largely true, there is nothing to refute! How can you refute a fact of life? If i put this fact into my 99% false theory would it make the whole theory true?


4...Individuals with some characteristics survive and reproduce better (have higher fitness) than do individuals with other characteristics. This has now been observed in hundreds of populations.


Again stating the blinding obvious! If this is all the infamous 'Darwin' had to say... i am hardly impressed.

There you have it... your precious theory mildly refuted by me (and i am not even a science specialist)

[Kaiser]

Well lets see, the thing that life started from some soup I dont agree there was something that triggered it which is unknown.

To point out, humans didnt evolve out of apes, for some reason some people say this about the evolution thing, even tho the evolution thory never even says anything like humans evolved from apes.

DNA isnt anything absolute, it can and does change all the time, not talking about mutations.
Not saying that something evolved out of another thing.

As for the ones who say that the world was created about 4000 years ago out of nothing, they are clearly stupid, its been proven that the planet formed about 4 billion years ago.

Although I do consider myself a creatonist, I dont accept the way of thinking that everything that currently exists just came out of nothing WHAM, it is impossible ignore what has been discovered.

I agree with Sultan that the times when sciences were studied in the great empires and the muslim lands were the great places of science and discoverys, were the great times.

But unfortunatly those times have long passed and glory and knowladge gone and at the same time replaced with ignorance instead.

Those who thought up of makeing knowladge secondary issue (something that should be dealth with in spare time) or even those extremes that started spreading the views that things new and discovering and learning is Evil, could be named the biggest ignorant, foolish, backward and degradeing people of all times and it is people like them that are solely responsible and guilty in the decline of the great islamic empires and their collapse, for it was those things that weakened them, slowed down process and made them easy prey and things to be colonized by the more advanced empires of the west.

You see during the times of the great Islamic empires one could even say that the people there were more educated and knowladgeble then those of the rest of the world, I could even say there were atleast 2-3 years ahead of them all.
But those of the current times instead by the majority arent better at then the people of those times if anything people have degraded even backwards somewhat.
While the western empires have just slipped past and have a long lead which grows longer with every passing day.

This can by the majority blamed on corruption and power hungry rules who want to keep the masses as blind fools, who obey them, which has been succesful esp in recent times (lots of dictators)

Perhaps the most shameful thing of all is abandoning the search for knowladge, discredating it and makeing it secondary or even a thing that is looked at with dislike and in return replaced with blind ignorance in anything that you are told, making the masses more easy to control by the ruling powers.

My word of advice would be: Wake up everyone, its time to stop dreaming and talking about the great old days and do something to improve the current ones, so that they too could be called great one day.

But to do this, we must all devote to learning and gaining knowladge, so that we can advance and can be considered equal.

We must stop denying the fact how grim our situation is and living in the dreamy state of wishing for the good ol times to return and trust me, blind faith and wishing that those old times will come back will not make them return, rather all it will do is to make everyone look down on us and ensure that we looked onto as lesser, backward and things to be colonized and turned into servants.
Unfortunatly for us there are traitors amogst us like the corrupt and greedy dictators who keep their followers in blind ignorance and sell the everything to the west for personal gain.

Allah will only help us if we help ourselves, instead of being silent and just praying that by some miracle the sands of time are turned back and the "good ol times" returned for they will never come and we could just endlessly sit as we are being forced into subservience and thats which is ours is being taken or worse sold by the corrupted.

Our path to greatness should not be by means of attacks of terror and trying by these means make demands in hopes of scareing them away, which will only result in retaliation where slowly but surely we will be wiped out, although many might agree that then we would die as martyrs and so on, I am rather asking you to look forward to a longer perspective and youll see that it will just end with an eventual wipe out. And in the end they will win because there just wont be any of us left.

I would propose that instead we should advance in fields of knowladge and thus over time accumulating wider power, which will make the west see as a power that cant be pushed around and which limits their abilitys to have free reign over us and forces them to diplomacy, making us look as someone who has to negotiated with and respected.
Unlike the current situation where we are treated more like something that can be controlled and forced.

In conclusion: those of you that want, can keep on sitting quietly praying and hopeing that things will improve, but those of you who are tired of waiting, should rather pray that you are succesful in improving things and take actions towards improvement.
Fear not failure, fear later regretting that you didnt do anything, while you still could have.

[suspiro]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
the eyeball

one of the most complex items of creation

it came from evolution? meaning from this primordal soup, an eyeball developed?

and you call creationists living in a fantasy?

as someone said, you would have a better chance of a tornado ripping thru a junkyard and when its finished, brand new mercedes, than the impossible chance that all of creation or even the human hand developed by happenstance

Yes my friend,

The eyeball evolved, like every other part of God's creation. We can see many of the intermediate stages of eyeball development in animals alive today, from the cave-dwelling primitive fishes with bundles of light-sensitive cells that enable them to locate their feeding areas through to the ultimate eyes of Golden Eagles that can see tiny objects in full detail from 5000 feet up.

Only the best attributes survive from generation to generation. It makes perfect sense.

[suspiro]

Egyptianmuslima,

You wouldn't happen to be Monika, would you?

If yes, I have certain lavender questions to discuss with you, interrupted from several months ago.

[AhmedSyed]

Originally posted by Egyptianmuslima
as salam alykom again AhmedSyed
If science tell you that we die and that is it, we dont resurrect, we simply vanish, that our end is our death. would u believe the science and repsect it as well???

Science cannot prove such a thing. For one thing, they do not have the capablities to see what happens to the human mind after death. All they know is that it is dead--how ever, they do not know what the individual is experienceing.